Don’t use the product and wrap the area. A friend of mine did and the horses ended up with blisters. She had no idea.
[QUOTE=foundationmare;7199209]
Laurierace this is an older thread I realize but happened upon a windfall of the stuff (thanks my canadian friend!) Does this test in racehorses?[/QUOTE]
Yes it does test. There is a withdrawl period that varies by jurisdiction.
US folks, what’s the best source of this? Vet suggested we use Surpass on the poor guy I took home…hock is still swollen but much improved.
[QUOTE=goodmorning;7200721]
US folks, what’s the best source of this? Vet suggested we use Surpass on the poor guy I took home…hock is still swollen but much improved.[/QUOTE]
Voltaren is not OTC in the US.
[QUOTE=goodmorning;7200721]
US folks, what’s the best source of this? Vet suggested we use Surpass on the poor guy I took home…hock is still swollen but much improved.[/QUOTE]
It is prescription in the US. You’ll need to get a script for Surpass, or buy some from your vet.
Yes, but is there a best place to have it called in?
Also, we can order from Canadian pharmacies…a search brought up feelbest - with shipping much less than Surpass but not sure if it’s worth ordering from there or getting an rx.
Looking for the most inexpensive option :yes:
[QUOTE=goodmorning;7200798]
Yes, but is there a best place to have it called in?
Also, we can order from Canadian pharmacies…a search brought up feelbest - with shipping much less than Surpass but not sure if it’s worth ordering from there or getting an rx.
Looking for the most inexpensive option :yes:[/QUOTE]
My guess is that Costco may be the cheapest US Pharmacy option… but I am not sure a vet will be willing to call in Voltaren rather than Surpass. I guess you can ask!
I have ordered from feelbest twice with no problems. I actually need to order again - 2 tubes, one for the house and one for the barn! 
Voltaren is a perfect example of the unsubstantiated value of a cheaper alternative to an expensive equine medication by work of mouth. Like others we told about Votaren as being a fall less expensive alternative to Surpass, around $15 verses $75. Because we are a fairly large and diverse TB farm we do a lot of business with very well known and respected clinics and their staff. This has allowed us to develop an excellent relationship and affords me the luxury of being able to discuss things in detail that the average horse owner/caretaker can not , on and off the record.
The value of Voltaren verses Surpass came up last spring. New Bolton had just finished doing a study and concluded that Votaren is not nearly as effective as Surpass. Though similar they are compounded differently one for humans and one for equine. The absorption factor being one but I recall there were other reasons also. I was strongly advised to suck up the cost difference and stay with Surpass. And yes it will test, withdrawal times differ by discipline. 12 hours to 48 it seems for the recommended amount, 5" ribbon by ½".
This is not to say that there are not cheaper alternatives for a number of medications that are basically the same but given a different name and price for equine use. Especially antibiotics. All of which can be bought and or compounded by a lot of local pharmacies.
I am going to ask if Voltaren would be more or as effective as Surpass when mixed with DMSO.
Voltaren does work great on us humans. We have friends that routinely ship horses to Canada and purchase for us and friends.
[QUOTE=Charlie Piccione;7199242]
DO NOT BANDAGE OVER THE TOP OF IT.
Burns the skin off.[/QUOTE]
This is what I was going to say. I used it on my mare with a suspensory injury and burnt her skin very badly. Needless to say, I felt terrible.
[QUOTE=gumtree;7200901]
Voltaren is a perfect example of the unsubstantiated value of a cheaper alternative to an expensive equine medication by work of mouth. Like others we told about Votaren as being a fall less expensive alternative to Surpass, around $15 verses $75. Because we are a fairly large and diverse TB farm we do a lot of business with very well known and respected clinics and their staff. This has allowed us to develop an excellent relationship and affords me the luxury of being able to discuss things in detail that the average horse owner/caretaker can not , on and off the record.
The value of Voltaren verses Surpass came up last spring. New Bolton had just finished doing a study and concluded that Votaren is not nearly as effective as Surpass. Though similar they are compounded differently one for humans and one for equine. The absorption factor being one but I recall there were other reasons also. I was strongly advised to suck up the cost difference and stay with Surpass. And yes it will test, withdrawal times differ by disciple. 12 hours to 48 it seems for the recommended amount, 5" ribbon by ½".
This is not to say that there are not cheaper alternatives for a number of medications that are basically the same but given a different name and price for equine use. Especially antibiotics. All of which can be bought and or compounded by a lot of local pharmacies.
I am going to ask if Voltaren would be more or as effective as Surpass when mixed with DMSO.
Voltaren does work great on us humans. We have friends that routinely ship horses to Canada and purchase for us and friends.[/QUOTE]
I find this a little bizarre given that the concentration is the same Voltaren versus Surpass. Both are 1% diclofenac sodium. I don’t even think the “carrier” is any different other than the scent added. In addition, if Voltaren is simply less readily absorbed, you could use twice as much and STILL come out cheaper than Surpass?!
Here’s what Surpass is…
http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/lookup.cfm?setid=567de37c-c9da-46e7-8347-01a832ee21b2
1% diclofenac sodium in a base composed of Phospholipon 90H, propylene glycol, alcohol (5.94%), vitamin E acetate, benzethonium chloride and purified water in the Wisdom® liposomal formulation
And Voltaren is
http://www.rxlist.com/voltaren-gel-drug.htm
Also 1% (per the Voltaren website)
It contains the active ingredient, diclofenac sodium, in an opaque, white gel base. . . . Voltaren® Gel (diclofenac sodium gel) also contains carbomer homopolymer Type C, cocoyl caprylocaprate, fragrance, isopropyl alcohol, mineral oil, polyoxyl 20 cetostearyl ether, propylene glycol, purified water, and strong ammonia solution.
I’m no chemist but they’re both 1% active ingredient in a base that has many of the same ingredients. If Voltaren is less readily absorbed, you can use more of it fairly easily.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7201532]
I find this a little bizarre given that the concentration is higher in Voltaren versus Surpass.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but the carrier formulas are different, and that really matters. I’m guessing that gumtree is referring to the study that came out in 2011. I remember reading that study and posting about it.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?324669-has-anyone-ordered-Voltaren-from-an-online-pharmacy-for-their-horse-(-Surpass)&p=5897212#post5897212
The Cliff’s Notes version to my post: yes, studies confirm that Voltaren (and four other human-grade creams) absorb through equine skin at pathetically low rates. But a small amount of it does get through, and it does produce some reduction in swelling. So one could see how it might still help horses with chronic low-grade pain, especially if you apply it in big doses or multiple times a day. (<–warning: I am not a vet nor do I play one on TV. This is just my conjecture after reading the 2011 study and the study that proved Surpass’ efficacy in horses.)
Anecdotally I have used voltaren on clipped skin with good results.
Voltaren Emulgel (nicely articulated here)
Diethylamine, carbomer, macrogol cetostearyl ether, cocyl caprylocaprate, isopropyl alcohol, liquid paraffin heavy, perfume creme 45, propylene glycol dist., and water.
vs
Surpass
Phospholipon 90H
Propylene glycol
Ethyl alcohol
Benzethonium chloride
Vitamin E acetate
Wisdom liposomal formulation (read this article)
Both patented of course, both designed to deliver compound X through the skin to local site of inflammation: is Surpass formulated for equine skin, I should hope so.
But this study from a country where Surpass is not available.
Active ingredient in both is equivalent Diclofenac
In my situation, the former proved effective (vet suggested both in the same breath).
Yes Surpass is more costly to produce, both cost $$$$ for the R&D & licensing, Novartis will sell ALOT more units of product.
Oh, FM, it tests, so sorry, I wasn’t sure about that:( Good for layups, I guess) My vet here recommends for all those achy sprains, but then, I don’t race horses.
[QUOTE=jn4jenny;7201593]
The Cliff’s Notes version to my post: yes, studies confirm that Voltaren (and four other human-grade creams) absorb through equine skin at pathetically low rates.[/QUOTE]
BUT you can find similar studies for Surpass as well …
and also very positive data … examine the materials & methods & experimental design & data & results & conclusions closely & it gets more interesting.
Or not :lol:
[QUOTE=vxf111;7201532]
I find this a little bizarre given that the concentration is the same Voltaren versus Surpass. Both are 1% diclofenac sodium. I don’t even think the “carrier” is any different other than the scent added. In addition, if Voltaren is simply less readily absorbed, you could use twice as much and STILL come out cheaper than Surpass?![/QUOTE]
I don’t entirely disagree which is why after comparing the two by labeling and the main active ingredient we started using it instead of the much more expensive Surpass as many others have. Like others I have a very good working knowledge of these things but I am not a pharma chemist. I am just passing on what I was told by one of the people involved in the study at U Penn New Bolton. No disrespect but I tend to put more stock in advice that I get from people who have a fair bit of unbiased expertise in what they are talking about. Especially those on the internet who give links to their name, back ground and expertise so as to qualify their advise and or comments.
As always to each their own.
[QUOTE=jn4jenny;7201593]
Yes, but the carrier formulas are different, and that really matters. I’m guessing that gumtree is referring to the study that came out in 2011. I remember reading that study and posting about it.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?324669-has-anyone-ordered-Voltaren-from-an-online-pharmacy-for-their-horse-(-Surpass)&p=5897212#post5897212
The Cliff’s Notes version to my post: yes, studies confirm that Voltaren (and four other human-grade creams) absorb through equine skin at pathetically low rates. But a small amount of it does get through, and it does produce some reduction in swelling. So one could see how it might still help horses with chronic low-grade pain, especially if you apply it in big doses or multiple times a day. (<–warning: I am not a vet nor do I play one on TV. This is just my conjecture after reading the 2011 study and the study that proved Surpass’ efficacy in horses.)[/QUOTE]
Actually it was done at U Penn New Bolton recently if I understood the Vet I discussed this with correctly.
The study you referenced, linked is from Argentina and required a payment to read which I passed on if I clicked the correct link. Nothing against Argentine expertise I have done a considerable amount of horse business there and have a lot of respect for their vets and horsemanship. But I would bet the farm that U of Penn New Bolton is far better funded when doing studies then in Argentina.
[QUOTE=gumtree;7201689]
I don’t entirely disagree which is why after comparing the two by labeling and the main active ingredient we started using it instead of the much more expensive Surpass as many others have. Like others I have a very good working knowledge of these things but I am not a pharma chemist. I am just passing on what I was told by one of the people involved in the study at U Penn New Bolton. No disrespect but I tend to put more stock in advice that I get from people who have a fair bit of unbiased expertise in what they are talking about. Especially those on the internet who give links to their name, back ground and expertise so as to qualify their advise and or comments.
As always to each their own.[/QUOTE]
Vet schools/vets are often sent tons of literature, samples, freebies, and other goodies by drug manufacturers trying to get the clinic to suggest that drug. Random horse owners generally are not. Maybe we define “unbiased” a little differently. Which is not to suggest that New Bolton would rig a study just because they get free pens and mugs from Boehringer Ingelheim-- but to suggest vets are wholly unbiased is something a little different. Everyone’s got biases to some degree.
Mine’s being cheap :)
You can use 4x as much Voltaren and still come out cheaper than Surpass. You might consider using DMSO with one (or both) to increase absorption. I have no dog in the fight except that I like to save money where I can. I had exactly the same results from Voltaren and Surpass on my horse’s clipped leg, and at 1/5 the cost, many people who cannot afford Surpass may be able to afford Voltaren. I don’t have any dog in a fight as to what other people do… but I use Voltaren with success.
I use blue pop rocks too. And saw just as good success as GastroGard. And have seen more than a few horses do excellent on Previcoxx over Equioxx. Also, equal efficacy in my anecdotal experience. But if you want to line Merial’s pockets, that’s your call.
