Wacky arena construction question

[Amberley]

Guys.

You cannot compact woodchips. Nor can you glue them down with mulch glue and magically make them into a base. Using wood as footing is a cheap and temporary solution that requires a lot of maintenance. When the lignin breaks down the chips hold water and all you can do is remove and replace them.

I grew up riding on wood chip arenas, fwiw. They are slippery as hell, they freeze, they get deep, you have to rake them constantly, they get dusty and every few years they need all the wood removed and replaced. Occasionally someone gets a huge puncture wound. There is a reason no-one has built one in 30 years or more unless they have a ready supply of cheap cedar, the only wood worth even trying with.

[colorfan]

I would be concerned about 2 types of footing also.
Maybe go for the less expensive option to start, it could buy you a few years.
Its hard to say without actually ‘seeing’ but maybe, in the really boggy spots, put some clay in as ‘fill’, (maybe clay isn’t cheap in your area, here you basically pay for the trucking) then once the hole is mostly filled top with your sand chips mixture.

For what it’s worth using wood chips in an outdoor arena is pretty common here. The first year sucks because sometimes the chips are sharp and can bother the horses feet but after that they work not bad. They are used on trails quite a bit too to keep down the mud.

[Simkie]

Literally no one is discussing using wood chips as a footing here, Amberley.

We bought this place eight years ago. The barn went in over twenty years ago. The arena as it is right now is between 9 and 20 some odd years old.

Most of it functions FINE. Pretty well, actually. I had absolutely NO IDEA there were chips under the top except in the spots where the layers have broken down.

The intact parts of the arena are a little springy, like one of those gymnastic floors. Which makes sense now that it’s clear what’s under there.

[Simkie]

@NaturallyHappy

I would wonder how one drags this though, as to not get into the chips.

I’ve tried to drag up a loose layer on this with the chain harrow or the York rake and never had much success, in part because of the grass/weeds that have grown. Good thing I never got very deep! Will definitely require some care going forward.

@B-burg_Dressage I can try to get some pics–we’ve had some rain, so the scraped out parts are all kinda wet. What exactly do you wanna see?

[endlessclimb]

Amberly.

Some of us are doing the best with what we’ve got. Some of what we haven’t got is unlimited funds, or Olympic aspirations.

Not everyone is going to drop 5 figures on an outdoor arena, when the payback on that investment is realistically non existent.

And yeah, you can compact any medium. If it’s organic, it will break down. If it’s inorganic, it wont. But anything can get packed down/compressed.

[Amberley]

Of course. But some of you don’t understand anything at all about grading and are apparently completely unwilling to listen to those that do, instead making snide remarks and going the “my opinion is as good as your” route. Which fine- but don’t ask questions or post your suggestions in public if you don’t like being contradicted.

You cannot compact woodchips with a rental compactor, it’s asinine to suggest you can. They are a springy material by design. “compaction” has an actual meaning when it comes to preparing ground and no, not every material can be compacted.

[NaturallyHappy]

@Amberley

You cannot compact woodchips with a rental compactor, it’s asinine to suggest you can.

I’m the one that mentioned that. Maybe compaction is the wrong word. When I get mulch or get bedding, it comes in a big pile. After bedding is put in stalls and horses sleep laying down, it is packed down-not light and fluffy like the areas where the horse hasn’t smashed it. Anyway, I’m just brainstorming here. I have a tractor driveway that works really well and has for 25 years. The stone people told me it would never work🤷🏼‍♀️. Part of @Simke’s arena works really well. We are doing our best to help.

[endlessclimb]

Mulch does the same thing. Or the woodchips in a kid’s playground area.

No, we are not talking about compacting like one talks about compacting before pouring concrete or building a structure, or before a “proper and expensive” arena build. I thought that was obvious, but I guess it’s not obvious to some.

[Simkie]

@NaturallyHappy

I have a tractor driveway that works really well and has for 25 years.

I have the same sort of thing in front on my manure bins. Rocks (big 'uns, too big to dig out) always made getting into the middle bin a little unnerving, so I brought up level in front of all three with chips. They’ve matted down and compressed (or whatever lol) and turned into such a nice solid surface. Works great!

@B-burg_Dressage here are some pics. It wasn’t this wet when I started scraping stuff out…we’ve had rain since.

The layers.

This is what the intact top surface looks like.

This is an area with layer breakdown, and chips coming up.

Here are some of the chips that were beneath the sand.

And @Amberley my dude not a single person here denies that the absolute best way to handle this is to scrape it all out and start fresh. I’ll tell you what. Because you seem so emotionally invested in this, I would be perfectly happy to let you do that. You bankroll it, and do this the one true only way to do any arena. You can even berate me, tell me how stupid it is, tell me how wrong I am, tell me how what’s here can’t possibly work, tell me it’s not as old as I say, whatever. For the duration of one cold beer, or your libation of choice–which I’ll even provide! Seems like a win win. You get to be right, you get to call me stupid, and the arena will be 100% up to your exacting standards. For your planning purposes, it’s about 80x120, and a triaxle of rock from the quarry runs about a grand. Lmk!!

[B-burg_Dressage]

Thank you. I was just curious what it looked like. I’d not heard of chips as a base and was having trouble imagining it.

My imagination still doesn’t understand how it works, but clearly it does in most of your arena. Good luck!

FWIW I think digging out and redoing the boggy areas just like the rest of your arena is your best bet. If it doesn’t work then you can plan to do a bigger overhaul then, but you might as well try since it works many places.

[B_and_B]

That is interesting! The clay color (you are SW CT right?) is almost certainly our native glacial till. It is clay, sort of, nasty stuff. Your chips are definitely chips, not stump grindings. I am thinking probably it was largely hemlock, as hardwoods or pine would have broken down farther by now. Or possibly cedar, if they had some money to burn. That may be the most likely wood type, actually. The problem may be that the chips, when they were buried were rotting much more slowly. Once the cap was breached, the rate of rotting would be much faster. hence the bog. That is just my guess, based on what buried wood does…
I think fixing it by redoing what was done originally is the way to go, the trick is to get somebody who really understands how to make the sand cap and to grade it correctly. Good luck!
If you can swing it, I would also add more sand to it. Or a layer of stone dust over the whole thing.

[beowulf]

This thread’s turn is reminding me of a recent post I made in my town’s FB page dedicated to native plants. I asked for non-herbicidal ways to remove poison ivy from my postage-stamp sized yard. Some responses were helpful, some tried to be helpful but weren’t feasible with my setup. But one poster took the cake by replying “Poison Ivy is a native plant. This group loves native plants. Please leave it alone. We like it. It is awesome.” It took all my power to not respond to him “Where would you like me to drop off the clippings?”

Anyway, that’s the internet for you. Some days we just got to take what works for us and leave the rest.

[Simkie]

@beowulf

“Poison Ivy is a native plant. This group loves native plants. Please leave it alone. We like it. It is awesome.” It took all my power to not respond to him “Where would you like me to drop off the clippings?”

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable reply

@B_and_B

Or possibly cedar, if they had some money to burn.

Yeah nooooooooooooooo definitely not how these people rolled lol. I have zero doubt these chips were either from clearing here or whatever chip drop provided!

@B_and_B

I think fixing it by redoing what was done originally is the way to go, the trick is to get somebody who really understands how to make the sand cap and to grade it correctly. Good luck!
If you can swing it, I would also add more sand to it. Or a layer of stone dust over the whole thing.

I’ll be doing the work so I hope I can figure it out! The grade of it has been fine so far and everything is downhill from this area so drainage isn’t really tricky. I’m planning on going with stone dust on top. I know what I get there but know zippo about the different types of sand available, and don’t want to pick wrong. That would be irksome Yeah, would love to get more of a cap over the whole thing! We’ll see how it goes.

Oh and @B-burg_Dressage it just looks like a dirt arena. Works like one too, except it’s kinda springy. Which I never really understood! But sure do now haha.

[jvanrens]

@B_and_B

I am thinking probably it was largely hemlock, as hardwoods or pine would have broken down farther by now. Or possibly cedar, if they had some money to burn.

Hemlock is hard wood. Pine is soft. I’ve had to drive a nail through both, prefer the pine, but the hemlock lasts longer for stalls and fence rails, so had to suck it up. Cedar is pretty much a weed around here, acres and acres covered in it. My brother had to clear about half an acre of it to build his house. I guess it depends on where you live if you think it’s valuable. Or do you mean it’s not going to last long so you’re constantly replacing it?

[Simkie]

@jvanrens

Hemlock is hard wood

Hemlock is a conifer and therefore classified as a softwood. It’s a shame, because we have a shit ton here, and they’re crap to burn.

I pulled down a bunch last year, had the wood milled, and then resided/refloored my run in with it! Super fun project. We’ll see how it holds up.

Cedar is really rot resistant but none of that around us, bummer. Used to be, but it all looks to have died awhile ago. @B_and_B maybe you’d know why??

[jvanrens]

The farm I managed had hemlock for stall fronts and fence rails, and wish there were easy ways to get a nail into the stuff. Likely how I ended up with tendonitis in my shoulder. Some people might think it’s crap, but boy, it worked well! The pine boards would be broken by a good kick, but the hemlock just got kicked out.

[Simkie]

I’m all about the pre drilling! For just about anything!

[NaturallyHappy]

[quote=“Simkie, post:53, topic:805769”]

@beowulf

Poison Ivy is a native plant. This group loves native plants. Please leave it alone. We like it. It is awesome.” It took all my power to not respond to him “Where would you like me to drop off the clippings?”

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable reply
[/quote].

This cracks me up. I would have offered to have them come and transplant it😀.

[B_and_B]

Cedar chips in New England are generally imported from out of state, either White Cedar from farther north or Pacific Cedar from the Northwest forestry industry. That is Thuja plicata or Thuja occidentalis. Highly rot resistant wood, and what is referred to as cedar in the building/landscaping industry. This is a relatively expensive wood, and hence why I suggested it would be more expensive than chips from hemlock. Because, everyone has been chipping hemlock up around here as it dies off.
However! Here is where Latin names become important Cedar also refers to a member of the of juniper family (Red or Eastern Cedar, juniperus virginiana) and a western cousin, also a juniper. Very common in old fields in the east, it dies out in the shade @Simkie, this is probably what you are seeing. @jvanrens your cedar is probably also this or its western cousin.

[jvanrens]

I’m in eastern Ontario, so the eastern white cedar around here. They make great hedges and mosquito havens.