Warmblood Registries whom are most accepting of TB mares for approval

[Lunatuna]

I would like to get my TB mare reg. and approved with one of the WB registries, as I do plan on breeding her to a WB stallion, eventually. (Shes only 4 right now, so not for another few years). However, I want to get her registered somewhat soon, just in case, (God forbid) she were ever to become lame and unable to be judged on movement. Her temperament will never be a problem! She also has nice conformation.

Anyway, which of the registries approve the most TB mares. I have worked with the ATA, before. However, getting my mare inspected and approved in to the Main Mare Book was a breeze, since she was full trake, had amazing breeding, and lovely way of going. I LOVE Trakehners but I went to an inspection with my friend’s TB mare and we were shocked she didn’t pass! This was a very lovely mare, with three nice gaits, lovely movement (was shown up to 4th level), great mind, and though her conformation wasn’t the greatest, there were other mares that had far worse builds that were passing left and right! She did, though, pass and was approved with the Oldenburgs.

So, which registries are the most accepting of TBs? Obviously, no registry is going to approve a poor quality TB and/or one with no papers (jockey club, etc.) but my mare does have JC papers and is a nice all-around, athletic, mare.

[epowers]

You cannot get your mare registered with any Warmblood registries, because she is already a registered Thoroughbred. You can, however, get her approved and entered into their breeding books so that her offspring by approved stallions will be registerable there.

The American registries are going to be the most lenient: American Warmbloods and ISR/ONA (which, in spite of their “borrowing” the Oldenburg name, is a purely American registry with zero affiliation or relation with/to actual Oldenburg horses or any European registries). Of the Euro registries, RPSI is probably one of the “easiest” to pass approval for. KWPN doesn’t actually require inspection of TB mares for the foal to get full Reg A papers with a fully approved KWPN sire. GOV (German Oldenburg) is a bit stricter with what they accept, and if you present to Hanoverian you’d better be confident that you have a damn nice Thoroughbred mare. I have no experience with the Holsteiner approval process, though I’ve known a few nice TB mares who were approved through them. The last time I was at an ATA inspection, they seemed pretty lenient, but that was some years ago so perhaps they have gotten stricter, or maybe there was just a particular flaw with the mare you presented that they were not willing to overlook.

[danskbreeder]

Depending on the quality of your mare, Dansk Varmblod will approve TB’s. However they will not be back inspecting in the US until the fall of 2016.

[NoDQhere]

RPSI tours all over the US and Canada and I have never seen them turn down a TB.

[sid]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8065644]
RPSI tours all over the US and Canada and I have never seen them turn down a TB.[/QUOTE]

You mean, put them into one of the lower books if they don’t meet the criteria they are looking for to enter them in the Main Mare Book, right? I used to hold RPSI inspections and stallion licensings. Many a TB mare wound up in one of the lower books – not all make it into the MMB.

[epowers]

Anecdote: I’ve also seen the Westfalen people make an entire designated trip to a farm to inspect a single Throughbred mare and her foal by a Westfalen-approved stallion, and they approved the mare in spite of the fact that she was honestly one of the poorest quality mares that I have ever personally seen bred (poor conformation, chronically unsound, horrible disposition). So apparently they aren’t very picky, or they are a small enough presence in the US that they don’t feel they can turn anyone down/didn’t want to miss out on ($$) registering the foal, or maybe it was a case of someone-knows-someone, I have no idea. But that was my one-and-only experience with the Westfalen approval process in the US.

[DawnJL]

[QUOTE=Lunatuna;8063144]

Anyway, which of the registries approve the most TB mares. I have worked with the ATA, before. However, getting my mare inspected and approved in to the Main Mare Book was a breeze, since she was full trake, had amazing breeding, and lovely way of going. I LOVE Trakehners but I went to an inspection with my friend’s TB mare and we were shocked she didn’t pass! This was a very lovely mare, with three nice gaits, lovely movement (was shown up to 4th level), great mind, and though her conformation wasn’t the greatest, there were other mares that had far worse builds that were passing left and right![/QUOTE]

From the ATA site:

Q: Why is the approval score required for Preliminary Stud Book 50% Trakehner mares out of Thoroughbred, Arabian, Anglo-Arabian and Shagya Arabian dams higher than the score required for full Trakehner mares for Official Stud Book approval? [INDENT] A: The minimum score for approval for this category of mares in the Preliminary Stud Book is 44 points from a possible 70 points. The Preliminary Stud Book is a means of adding outside blood to the existing Trakehner gene pool. We feel it is important that the outside blood be of a higher quality in order to further improve the high quality standards set for the breed.
[/INDENT]
Q: What is the minimum score for Thoroughbred and Arabian mares for the Preliminary Stud Book? [INDENT] A. The minimum score for Thoroughbred and Arabian mares is 49 points from a possible 70 points. These mares add a significant amount of outside genetics and their quality contribution must be significantly higher to help improve the Trakehner breed.

[/INDENT]

2. Minimum Total Scores for approval for Stud Book with no individual criterion score below a 5:
   Trakehner OSB Mares 42 points
   PSB 50% Trakehner Mares 44 points
   PSB Thoroughbred and Arabian Mares 49 points

3. Minimum Total Scores for Premium designation for Trakehner Foals, and for Model Mares:
   Trakehner Mares 56 points (Average 8 for the 7 Criteria = 56)
   Trakehner Foals/Weanlings 24 points (Average 8 for the 3 Criteria = 24)

A more complete explanation of why the ATA requires TB mares to have a higher minimum score to be approved than either “full” Trak mares or 50% TB mares can be found HERE.

So if your friend’s mare was nice, but not quite good enough to score the minimum for a TB mare OR had at least one element that scored below a 5, she may well have been “better” (at least in many aspects) than some that did pass, while still falling short for what is required of TB mares that are accepted.

If you otherwise like the ATA, you may want to consult with them regarding your young TB mare to see if they think she is a good candidate.

[zipperfoot]

How do the warmblood registries feel about unsound TB mares? I have a mare that came off the track in 2005 with 4 (yes 4!) fractures. All healed but one (sesamoid) but she has considerable fetlock arthritis in front so she has good days and bad. She has good conformation, is a good mover (considering) and has a stellar disposition. She’s bred to Ironman, who’s approved with numerous registries. Due to foal in late May. I’ve considered having her/foal inspected, but wonder if she’d be penalized for her unsoundness.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8065644]
RPSI tours all over the US and Canada and I have never seen them turn down a TB.[/QUOTE]

Same with Old NA.

[sid]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8065816]
Same with Old NA.[/QUOTE]

I’ve “heard” that about the OLD/NA but don’t know that for a fact as I never went to that registrey. But I do know for a fact that the RPSI does not put all TB mares in the MMB.

The GOV will approve exceptional TB mares that fit with their breeding goals. In fact, I got one mare approved MMB in both GOV and RPSI. She was a hunter-bred stunner for sure.

The last I heard, TB mares that are presented to the AHA, are required to exceed the scores of Hanoverian mares. That may have changed. I can’t speak to the other registries mentioned here, as I have no experience with them.

I’m not sure of the “value” of going American Warmblood, but to each their own.

[elizabeth_Callahan]

IMO, they are all similar. All the registries will approve a good TB mare. My TB mare was tied for the top scoring mare in the US for RPSI in 2013, as well as in the top 10 for AHS. Interestingly enough, the ISR/OLD NA was the toughest on her - still Premium, but not in the top 10 for the US. So, if you have a good mare, pick whatever organization fits your needs. L AHS will not accept lower quality mares, but most if, not all the others will, and put them in lower mare books.

[sid]

Why would you present a mare that will wind up in the lower mare books? I sure wouldn’t. Maybe I’m being dense. In all my years of breeding - mares first, stallions later – I’d never present a mare that didn’t have a super shot for the MMB. Why do that?

[elizabeth_Callahan]

Sid,
I don’t think that everyone knows when they bring their mare in. Maybe it’s a pet, and they want a foal from her. Maybe it’s a competition mare who succeeded despite her conformation or movement. Maybe the mare is recently off the track and doesn’t look pf move like she will in a year…

[sid]

Elizsbeth, I’ve know this and seen it.

In fact I took a 21 year old Dutch mare with my foal afoot (bred to Boleem) ages ago who was DEAD lame on her right front from an injury in her high level sport. She was a keur dutch mare and given premium status when present to the Hanoverians before her injury.

I was petrified taking her to the GOV to get my foal inspected (of course she had to be inspected as the stallion was a GOV approved boy).

They put her right into the MMB despite being crippled and hobbling around the triangle…most likely because of the KWPN and AHA predicates that were already stamped on her papers…and of course her illustrious show record.

I would never recommend a TB mare to be presented unless, lame or otherwise, she was a real specimen and/or had a sport record.

I’m saying this to keep people from saving money and have their mare wind up in a lower book, then being disappointed, then having it take years of breeding top foals for them to graduate up to the MMB.

Now, if it’s only for “papers” to sell for sport to people who don’t intend to breed, that’s a whole different ballgame.

[NoDQhere]

[QUOTE=sid;8065651]
You mean, put them into one of the lower books if they don’t meet the criteria they are looking for to enter them in the Main Mare Book, right? I used to hold RPSI inspections and stallion licensings. Many a TB mare wound up in one of the lower books – not all make it into the MMB.[/QUOTE]

No I mean MMB. We hosted keurings for 13 years and I never saw a TB mare put lower than MMB. Their foals got the full brand. I also saw a colt sired by a TB out of a Zweibrucken mare get full brand and papers because the stallion had won over $100,000 on the track. RPSI seems to love TBs.

[sid]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8066428]
No I mean MMB. We hosted keurings for 13 years and I never saw a TB mare put lower than MMB. Their foals got the full brand. I also saw a colt sired by a TB out of a Zweibrucken mare get full brand and papers because the stallion had won over $100,000 on the track. RPSI seems to love TBs.[/QUOTE]

Odd, interesting to share. I never saw this. I held inspections and stallion licensings for 6 years. Out of about 7 stallions tested, only 1 was licensed. They were tough. And all of them were warmbloods…

I also saw several TB mares go into the lower books.

I guess, considering our different experiences, no registry should be painted with a big wide brush this way about accepting TB mares into the MMB.

[columbus]

approval not required with IDHSNA

In the Irish Draught Horse Society of North America the registration of the foals are dependant on the approval of the Irish Draught portion of the mating. If bred to an approved Irish Draught Sport Horse the foal is eleigible for registration and approval. Same if bred to an approved irish Draught, PatO

[Stoney447]

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;8066428]
No I mean MMB. We hosted keurings for 13 years and I never saw a TB mare put lower than MMB. Their foals got the full brand. I also saw a colt sired by a TB out of a Zweibrucken mare get full brand and papers because the stallion had won over $100,000 on the track. RPSI seems to love TBs.[/QUOTE]

I can confirm that the RPSI is willing to work with people who wish to use thoroughbreds in their breeding programs. My mare is currently in foal to a thoroughbred stallion that won over $700,000 at the track and who is predicted to breed well for racing here in Iowa and as such will never be presented to any sport horse registry (I was able to breed to him only because his oldest get are not at the track yet and I bred out of season in June). Otto was understanding of the reasons that I used this stallion and liked my mare enough to allow me to bring my foal for full registration. The stallion is not licensed with the RPSI, there has just been an allowance in this case that the offspring can be registered based on the quality of the mare and the stallion’s proven athletic ability. I presume this may have been the case in the situation that Patty mentioned above.

[LisaO]

A quality TB mare will be approved for breeding by most registries, so if the mare is quality, why not go for the “best” rather than an “easiest?” Now your definition of “best” may vary…

[AidanMor]

Before making your decision you should also think about your plans for the resulting offspring. If you plan to market/sell certain breed organizations may be more marketable than others. If you plan to breed and keep the offspring for yourself the breed organization you choose to go with will not matter so much.