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Warning to Stallion Owners-- USEF Points for Leading Sires

Sport Horse Breeding
#1

A little heads up to those of you who care about your offsprings’ points counting through USEF for leading sire awards. A friend told me today that when checking on a recent show’s results he noticed points had not been given to his sire for the offsprings’ wins. When he emailed USEF, they replied saying it was the stallion owner’s responsibility to make sure each offspring was linked to the stallion by making USEF aware of it via email to Ken Ball. Otherwise any points that have accrued will not be counted. The email was followed up with a phone call my friend to Ken Ball to confirm this fact.

I do not understand how it is possible for stallion owners to make USEF aware every time another of a stallion’s offspring start to compete. I do not own a stallion but I know several people who do and over years, the stallions are going to build a good number of offspring becoming impossible to keep up with who is showing when. The owners and trainers do not exactly call the SO up whenever they are about to start competing their horse. I think it’s unfair of USEF to force this responsibility on the SO’s when it is only USEF who has the records to know who is showing out there.

Has anyone else had experience or trouble with this? It is In my opinion USEF should be making sure that as long as owners have listed the sire with them that they’re giving the Sire of the competing horse the appropriate points without the constant intervention of the SO’s.

#2

Yes, I had to go through and do a sire search to find all of Amazing’s offspring, and then email Ken with the list. Otherwise, only one horse was listed. Crazy!

#3

Man ! You’d think the USEF were’nt keeping a complete database ?

#4

That’s insanity. So once you start to get a lot of offspring from your stallion, you’re basically going to be chasing USEF around almost constantly… trying to figure out who has started showing their horse THIS week!!! Why in the world is this not USEF’s job may I ask? We are paying for these services, no?

#5

[QUOTE=Quixotic;7324394]

Has anyone else had experience or trouble with this? It is In my opinion USEF should be making sure that as long as owners have listed the sire with them that they’re giving the Sire of the competing horse the appropriate points without the constant intervention of the SO’s.[/QUOTE]

It’s an improvement over last year! We found that there were some of Salute The Truth’s offspring registered with USEF that had NO sire/dam information. We were told by USEF then that the owner of the horse was responsible for that and that they’d have to make the call to get the change through. This year, it was a simple email to Ken Ball to get things fixed. For instance, Salute The Truth is registered with the Jockey Club as Boy Done Good. He had offspring in the USEF that were registered with that name as the sire instead of his USEF/competition name. All I had to do was send Ken an email to ask him to combine those records under one name and it was done. It would be nice if sire/dam was required information, but I guess that would be hard to do with horses of unknown pedigree like one of mine.

As a stallion owner, we will be sending USEF registration forms along with breeding certificates this year - with the proper information on the stallion already there. There are a lot of horses out there competing who aren’t even registered with USEF and/or have incorrect information (one son of our stallion had “Salute The Troops” :eek: as his sire in the USEA database…thankfully easily fixed).

#6

[QUOTE=Quixotic;7324394]

I do not understand how it is possible for stallion owners to make USEF aware every time another of a stallion’s offspring start to compete. I do not own a stallion but I know several people who do and over years, the stallions are going to build a good number of offspring becoming impossible to keep up with who is showing when. The owners and trainers do not exactly call the SO up whenever they are about to start competing their horse. I think it’s unfair of USEF to force this responsibility on the SO’s when it is only USEF who has the records to know who is showing out there.

Has anyone else had experience or trouble with this? It is In my opinion USEF should be making sure that as long as owners have listed the sire with them that they’re giving the Sire of the competing horse the appropriate points without the constant intervention of the SO’s.[/QUOTE]

Yes, this is a HUGE pain in the arse, and I absolutely do not understand why USEF just can’t hook up the foal to the #@$%# sire when the USEF number of the foal is recorded into their database.

When we purchased Penrhyn Sporting Chance back in 2009, it became immediately apparent that the previous owner had not kept up with the USEF database. In 2008, his foals recorded with USEF had enough points to put him in 6th place on the Leading Pony Hunter Sire List. Over TWENTY of his USEF recorded offspring were not “hooked up” to Penrhyn Sporting Chance in the USEF database, so Sporting Chance finished 46th overall in 2008 as a result. :frowning: Unfortunately, once December 1st hits, the points become final and there is no way to correct the errors. And for those wondering, yes, Penrhyn Sporting Chance WAS listed as the sire on those 20 some offspring…they just were not “hooked up” to their sire in the database.

We stand four pony hunter stallions, show full time, breed full time, I judge, design websites, do equine appraisals, etc., etc…the last thing I need to do is keep on top of USEF and make sure each new baby put into their database is hooked up to the appropriate sire. Absolutely ridiculous! So…a lot of times, I read the Leading Sire Lists with a grain of salt, as it does not take into account the foals who are not hooked up to their sires, the sire’s name is spelled wrong, number wasn’t recorded by the start of the competition, showing in the wrong zone, etc., etc.

As a side note though, Ken Ball is an absolute life saver and very prompt whenever I contact him to “hook up” a new baby or correct an error in the database. Kudos to him for his patience! :yes:

#7

Very frustrating and ridiculous indeed!

#8

It is frustrating :frowning: Richard has offspring listed under both of his show names, Ravanelli and Decadent, as well as, his registered name. I have emailed/asked USEF several times to get them linked together but they still are not.

#9

I am no longer a stallion owner and certainly don’t show much. But I have a question: why is it that Holland & Germany, etc. can manage to compile/maintain such extensive & detailed info on stallions, their get, show records, MPTs, etc. and the USA has such a problem?

I realize this question is OT, but I really don’t understand exactly what the problem is. I mean, the JC seems to be able to do it…why is the USEF always coming up short (at least, per so many posts on COTH & other equine sites)?

Why doesn’t the USA have a better system? Naive question, I suppose, but I’d like to understand…

#10

[QUOTE=horsechick;7324397]
Yes, I had to go through and do a sire search to find all of Amazing’s offspring, and then email Ken with the list. Otherwise, only one horse was listed. Crazy![/QUOTE]
No this is not true - really ???

Do they have a database idiot responsible for their data ?

#11

First of all - all shows in Germany are organized and under the Roof of ONE organsiation for all disciplines (incl. Vaulting and driving - not sure about Western). The FN is the “local” branch of the FEI.
The breeding organsiations are also sort of under the Roof of the FN (This realtion is difficult to explain, does not matter for the fact I will come back later)
Secondly each horse has a unique lifenumber and this is the leading key in the database. So as soon as you have the horses in the database with their unique lifenumber and ist parents, you can have all realtions ships going further down in Pedigree as Long as the old data is also maintained and set up.

  • As far as I know the breeding organisations deliver their data into the database of the FN and I think they are even technically working with the same database.
  • The USA was offered at one point as far as I know to obtain that database System, but they did not want to.
#12

Alexandra - You hit the proverbial nail on the head! ONE registration number per horse! As long as it is possible in the US to register the same horse with different names, nothing will ever change.

We’ve been complaining about this for years but it seems the hunter community carries more weight with the folks making the rules… Don’t even get me started…

#13

The United States Sport Horse Breeders Association spoke out on this issue at the recent USHJA annual meeting, in connection with our support of the USHJA’s proposal to require microchipping of USEF competition horses, which has since been withdrawn. One of our steering committee members, Judy Hedreen, also a member of the USHJA Jumper Breeding Task Force, has nonetheless been tasked by the USHJA Joint Breeders Task Force chair, Betty Oare, with submitting a formal report about microchipping in advance of the upcoming USEF meeting.

The USSHBA is determined to make headway on the issue of One Horse/One Number, and I will be printing out this thread to bring with me to the annual meeting of the USEF in Lexington KY in two weeks.

If you haven’t already done so, please consider joining USHHBA as a dues paying member. There is strength in numbers, and finally breeders and our supporters now have an avenue to take advantage of this tried and true method of effecting change.

#14

At the recent USHJA annual meeting, the United States Sport Horse Breeders Association (USSHBA) spoke out on this issue in connection with our support of the USHJA’s proposal to require microchipping of USEF competition horses, which has since been withdrawn.

Nonetheless, we are making headway in bringing wider visibility to this issue and earning for the USSHBA (and its members) a place at the negotiating table. One of our steering committee members, Judy Hedreen, also a member of the USHJA Jumper Breeding Task Force, has been asked by the USHJA Joint Breeders Task Force chair, Betty Oare, to present her with a formal report about microchipping in advance of the upcoming USEF meeting.

The USSHBA is determined to make headway on the issue of One Horse/One Number, and I will be printing out this thread to bring with me to the annual meeting of the USEF in Lexington KY in two weeks.

If you haven’t already done so, please consider joining USHHBA as a dues paying member. There is strength in numbers, and finally breeders and our supporters now have an avenue to take advantage of this tried and true method of effecting change.

#15

A few years ago, while perusing the USEF database looking for something, I noticed that the very successful horse Timber Ridge had Coriano listed as his sire in the horse recording stats.

Coriano was also showing up on the ranking list for top hunter sires, but Timber Ridge was not listed as one of the offspring that put him on the list. I emailed Ken Ball at USEF, who got Timber Ridge’s points attributed to Coriano in the top sire ranking list. Voila! Coriano immediately jumped from further down the list to #1, and he finished that year as the top hunter sire, besting the #2 horse by nearly 3000 points (most of which came from Timber Ridge).

I often wonder how many other instances there are like this, and how many other ranking lists have to be taken with a grain of salt. I know Ken tries to fix things when they are pointed out to him, but the system in general is flawed - these types of errors should NOT be occurring.

I hope that USSHBA manages to get through to the knuckleheads at USEF. Lord knows, a lot of other people have tried and failed. TPTB at USEF are more interested in protecting a very vocal and politically powerful segment of their membership that flourishes off the deliberate mis-identity of sale horses. :sigh:

#16

This thread is extremely important and I want to thank Quixotic for starting it.
As our National Federation, USEF needs to keep track of our USEF registered horses. Our USEF fees should cover that. But without a proper ID and numbering system, it is impossible to keep accurate data when you have so many horses in so many disciplines. Obvious of course, but easier said than done. That is why USEF absolutely needs to implement a new system, regardless of politics and special interests from such and such disciplines. It will be a bit messy at first and confusing for a lot of people but it will work and has worked for many years in the EU. This is what I have already proposed to USEF/USHJA (see below) as a starting point.
I believe that is also where USSHBA could really make a difference. It is crucial to be united and represented by a task force that can speak for everybody. So if you are really behind these ideas, supporting USSHBA will help.
As the YHS director, I have implemented mandatory registration for all horses that show at the YHS starting with yearlings in 2013. 2014 will see it expand to yearlings and 2 years old. In 2017, all horses that will have competed in the YHS will be registered. It is a small group of horses in comparison to what USEF deals with but none the less, if we can do it, so can they. I have yet to receive any complaints from any one about this as well. I actually believe that YHS competitors like it!
Jean Yves TOLA

[I]UELN Number proposal:
After researching and discussing the issue directly with UELN, I believe that USEF could start a new database based on UELN numbers.
How would it work?

  1. All existing organizations (Registries, studbook, etc…) that register horses at birth are eligible to get their own UELN code and therefore issue a UELN number.
  2. A UELN code is made of 6 numbers and is assigned to each applying organizations.
  3. Each organization needs to adapt their existing registration numbering by providing a 9 diigit number of their choice to each horse. That number can also include letters. That number would link the horses to the organization database where all of the info on the horses is stored.
  4. The combination of the 6 digit code provided by UELN and the 9 digit registration number provided by the organization will become the 15 digit UELN number.
  5. That 15 digit number would also need to be linked with microchip and would not change for the rest of the horse’s life.
  6. That number would be provided to USEF “as is” and would become their USEF number as well.
    With this system in place (which is the system already in place in most of Europe), USEF and therefore the US would be in line with the rest of the world when it comes to horse ID and make all data, sales and show records gathered on each horse relevant to Americans and the rest of the world as well.
    JY TOLA
    [/I]
#17

As a Stallion Owner, yes, this is 100% true.

#18

And just like that, one of our stallion lost out on 1,240 points for 2013! :frowning: This thread had me obsessing about points the last few days, so I went back and checked through the 60+ offspring this morning and I missed out on a couple of foals. Sigh!

#19

This coud all be solved if the USEF insisted on FULL details when accepting registrations. If you don’t supply details you pay the price.

#20

[QUOTE=alexandra;7325644]
No this is not true - really ???

Do they have a database idiot responsible for their data ?[/QUOTE]

I suspect it comes down to this:

The USEF horse registry, unlike a breed registry, has no restrictions on duplicate names. So for example, there are probably thousands of horses in the USEF database named “Celebration.”

So, when I register “Party Time” as a daughter of “Celebration,” they can’t just assign her to Celebration’s offspring because they don’t know which “Celebration” to choose.

What needs to happen is that when you register your horse, we need to have the sire and dam represented by a name AND a unique number, so the records can be cleanly linked. (That seems easier and more possible than insisting that everyone who ever names a horse come up with a totally unique name… :lol: )

The strategy of the stallion owner handing a pre-filled form to the mare owner seems very wise.

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