That almost looks like a segunda except the middle isn’t as pointy looking.
SLW - I too was brought up with the maxim - “Better to ask with a Pelham than yank with a snaffle”.
This horse was actually a nice dressage horse - (if you like the baroque type.He’s just a nondescript grade horse.) Hunting suits us both better - but he has not earned the right to hunt in a snaffle.
I got out my Klimke book on cavalletti and will set up an exercise or two with my redneck style jumps. I’ve been very lazy about schooling properly. Maybe that is a factor. He’s had almost two weeks off so he needs to be worked before I go out again next week. Might as well do it right for a change.
Thanks again for the info and advice.
My forward little guy usually goes in a pelham (not broken mouthpiece). I thought switching to a Waterford would work well. Didn’t make a difference. Actually, without the curb chain, he decided listening wasn’t required. Not a big deal because he is fairly obedient, but definitely not the quick responses I’d get with a light touch of the pelham.
I’d say he really doesn’t lean. More of the chin to his chest and keep chugging on. I think in general any non-broken mouth bit works best for him. Mostly it seems to depend on the rider. Sometimes I lend him out and the riders later ask ‘how do you make him stop’. Well, you have to mean it.
Jennifer
www.draftymanor.com
Nah, wasn’t you Bogie…
mine is being shipped to Estonia. I almost fell out of my chair when I went to send the invoice! We had to look it up on a map.
I’ve cut down my box of bits to my JP loose ring (Oh, how he LOFFS it) and a good ol’ fleecey lined, leather-nose short shank hackamore. For those ‘just wanna go for a long trail ride’ days. Of course, this is the OTTB that I hacked bareback in a halter (with me in shorts and flip flops, no less! so shoot me) this summer when my lock broke on my tack locker and I couldn’t get into it.
Well, since you asked…
I have seen the same ‘nutcracker’ explanation you have given sooooo many times, that in my mind it has become an internet legend. Someone read it somewhere, and it made sense, so they repeated it, and so on, and so on. Not meaning to pick on you, but I do ask myself, has the person posting all this stuff about how the bit works ever actually used one, or even seen one in use? I think the answer in most cases is, no.
For comparison, many, many people look at a spade bit and think ohmygawd, what an awful, awful bit, who would ever use that on a horse? When one learns the facts about a spade bit- how and why it is used and the training that goes into it- one understands that no, it really isn’t a bad bit. If one ever has the pleasure of riding a horse in a spade bit- the way a horse in a spade bit is supposed to be ridden, and yes, educated hands are a must- it is absolute horse heaven.
So, I will say again, jointed pelhams are just fine to use. I’ve used them mainly on horses that in nonhunting situations use a snaffle- and in the heat of battle might just lug on those snaffles. A little bit of curb rein at the right time, with a jointed mouthpiece, is all one needs, and otherwise one is riding in a true snaffle, using only the snaffle rein.
I’ll say it again- the worst damage I have ever seen to horses’ mouths was from plain snaffles. Second worst, jaw damage from mechanical hackamores. Big picture, it’s not the bit, it’s the hands.
I was actually looking at the waterford pelham for my TWH. I’m not a fan of curb bits with broken mouths at all really unless we are talking a chain type mouth piece, otherwise I like a solid mouth. My horse has a curb with a floppy chain mouth piece that he simply loves. I have tried all sorts of mouths: mullens, low port, medium port, broken mouth, twisted wire, stainless steel, copper…etc… He responds to them all pretty well, likes some more than others, but is happiest in his chain mouth. I’ve ever seen a pelham with a chain mouth piece like I use, but I did find the waterford and wondered if he would prefer something like that.
Well, yes I have. Several. For years. Go to any hunter show and they’re all over. That’s why I abhor them. Most recently, in a Nona Garson clinic at Equine Affaire there were several broken pelhams in 4 clinics over two days. Without exception, the curb chains were riding up mid -jaw and the shanks of the bit had collapsed inward. NG even made a specific effort to loop up the bight on the chains of the horses where the chain end was flopping around because the chain was snubbed up tight. Many of the horses were displaying serious, traditional evasions. Mouths open where there was no flash ( another of my least favorite bits of tack), rooting, head tossing, tucking their chins under, etc. Anything to get away.
Richard Shrake, has an interesting take on jointed curbs, and he’s more than a moderately well-respected bitting guru.
So, not to pick on you in return, can you explain why a jointed pelham is a good idea, and mechanically how it works? And why that is a Good Thing? ( And I do not think “When you use only the snaffle rein, it acts like a snaffle” is a good enough explanation. I mean, if you’re only using the snaffle rein, why bother with a pelham at all?)
[QUOTE=Beverley;2837229]
I’ll say it again- the worst damage I have ever seen to horses’ mouths was from plain snaffles. Second worst, jaw damage from mechanical hackamores. Big picture, it’s not the bit, it’s the hands.[/QUOTE]
This ultimately is what it boils down to. There are no Ifs, Ands or Buts about it!!:winkgrin:
So for those considering a waterford pelham any reason why you would not think to try a double bridle with a normal curb bit of some sort and a Dr. Bristol or chain mouth snaffle instead?
[QUOTE=Madeline;2840123]
So, not to pick on you in return, can you explain why a jointed pelham is a good idea, and mechanically how it works? And why that is a Good Thing? ( And I do not think “When you use only the snaffle rein, it acts like a snaffle” is a good enough explanation. I mean, if you’re only using the snaffle rein, why bother with a pelham at all?)[/QUOTE]
With all due respect to Nona and Richard who are indeed ultimate instructors, for me it comes down to the horse and what they like. For hunting and trail riding if my horse thrived on having a small rubber duck dangle from the bit I would affix one to the bit.
I have a mare who came from “Yippy-Ki-Yi-Yay” western riders, complete w/ a dead mouth and a huge heart. No amount of arena work has compensated for the poor riders in the past and her conformation defects- thick neck. A little leverage is better than none when directing her or changing gaits at high speeds on the hunt field. I tried a Kimberwicke, solid mouthpiece w/ small port. Complete & utter frustration for her. Tried a short shanked, solid mouthpiece Tom Thumb pelham. Complete frustration again. Myler D ring w/ ported swival barrel was better but she did over flex some on it. I put an Argentine Snaffle on her which is a jointed mouth pelham and waa-lah, she likes it. I prefer not to use double reins, more tack to clean, so I tried a Double Ring Gag w/ a french link mouthpiece. Perfect!!! That is what matters.
The mechanics of a bit are more important when dealing w/ inexperienced riders, not w/in the experienced group chatting about bits here.
Would I start a horse w/ a jointed pelham or a western Tom Thumb pelham, nope. In a perfect world we start them in snaffles and then move up the ranks through various bits, if needed, as our dicipline and skill set dictates.
Well, I think SLW has already beaten me to an excellent response. For me too, each horse’s favorite bit is my favorite bit for that horse.
I’ve not seen Nona in action, but have been to a Richard Shrake clinic, as is generally the case I think he has some good ideas, others not so good, and there are others nobody may ever have heard of whose opinion I value more highly when it comes to bits.
To speak to your last paragraph above, I think it was already explained in my previous post. It’s a good idea if the horse likes the bit. ‘Why bother with the pelham at all,’ well, as I previously explained, if every now and then you need a teensy bit of curb to keep the horse from lugging or rooting, that’s why.
You say you abhor them because you see them all over at the hunter shows. Just seeing a bit commonly used isn’t a reason to abhor them. Commonly misused would be a good reason. But if every horse going in a jointed pelham is going badly because it’s such an awful bit, wouldn’t the hunter show crowd have long sense abandoned them?
You state at the NG clinic that without exception, the chains were riding up mid jaw and the shanks were collapsing inward. Okay…if I am applying pressure straight back with both hands, how, pray, are those shanks going to go ‘inward’ any more than is the case when I’m using a snaffle? Unless I grasp the reins in such a manner as I can pull on the reins under the horse’s neck? The reins cannot get skinnier than the horse’s neck! The curb chain on ‘any’ curb bit is going to ride up more if you are hauling on the reins, but you know, it can’t go higher than the point at which it is attached. I know at least one person who puts a curb on an elevator for hunting- that’s very much higher on the jaw, I have yet to see her horses attempt to evade, but then she does have great hands. I would surmise that the evasions you witnessed were more bad hands than choice of bits, too bad they couldn’t have all switched to snaffles or something while you were watching, so you could have observed any differences just attributable to bits.
Jointed Pelhams vs. solid ones:
I have found that a horse will prefer one or the other, but NOT both. Some horses absolutely hate the mullen mouth pelham…but go great in the jointed, and the reverse is also true.
I also drive, and find that the same is true of a liverpool bit…a horse which hates the solid one will go great in the jointed one, and visa versa.
If a horse needs a pelham, I’ll try both and use the one the horse prefers.
Incidentally, I do hunt a horse in a jointed pelham…said horse is ridden only on the snaffle 90 percent of the time…but I do have the curb when I need it, which I do on occasion. Otherwise, I’d hunt him in a plain snaffle, like I do my other horse. But, I can get into trouble occasionally without the curb. He does not like the solid pelham, and therefore uses the jointed one. While I agree with the nutcracker explanation, I do not agree that there is no place for the jointed pelham; for some horses it is fine.
Waterford bits: I do have a horse that goes in a waterford snaffle. He is a leaner, and it works great.
Waterford baucher
I have one of these that I use on my “pony”. He is a Connemara cross that I bought out of a western can crashing/trail riding barn for $800 because he was “obviously an english horse” and didn’t have the feel around the barrels that they liked. Anyways, he is a bit like a train when there is a normal sized arena and jumps (think cross-rails). You anyone can ride him in the round pen with a loose-ring KK and a loopy rein but in the big arena he has no stop and pulls! We have been working on it for almost 2 years (I am not a green rider either). Anyways, the waterford is a lifesaver!!! He goes so well in it. If he is happy and I don’t have to be in his mouth every step around the ring, then I am happy. He takes a VERY light hand in the waterford. If your guys likes it and you can be light in his mouth with it, who cares what anyone else says?
I dont have much experience with pelhams but know I also used one when I was little because 1 tug was better than 5 tugs.
Question for Madeline…
[QUOTE=Madeline;2840123]
Well, yes I have. Several. For years. Go to any hunter show and they’re all over. That’s why I abhor them. Most recently, in a Nona Garson clinic at Equine Affaire there were several broken pelhams in 4 clinics over two days. Without exception, the curb chains were riding up mid -jaw and the shanks of the bit had collapsed inward. NG even made a specific effort to loop up the bight on the chains of the horses where the chain end was flopping around because the chain was snubbed up tight. Many of the horses were displaying serious, traditional evasions. Mouths open where there was no flash ( another of my least favorite bits of tack), rooting, head tossing, tucking their chins under, etc. Anything to get away.
Richard Shrake, has an interesting take on jointed curbs, and he’s more than a moderately well-respected bitting guru.
So, not to pick on you in return, can you explain why a jointed pelham is a good idea, and mechanically how it works? And why that is a Good Thing? ( And I do not think “When you use only the snaffle rein, it acts like a snaffle” is a good enough explanation. I mean, if you’re only using the snaffle rein, why bother with a pelham at all?)[/QUOTE]
Just curious…what’s so wrong with the curb chain riding up mid-jaw? If it’s not rubbing on the back of the noseband, etc, why would that be an issue? (and I’m guessing, if they were fitted with lipstraps, that wouldn’t happen - or does it pull up against the lipstrap?)
That’s where the chinstrap of a hackamore would sit, so…
Just curious!
To the OP - try a Weymouth set, perhaps? Did you already try a hackamore? The cheap versions of the Waterford pelhams are available through Ebay (but I bet you already knew that 
).
Agreed. I’m glad you posted the bit you found in your OP. I think it might be useful for my freight train puller.
Cool!
The Waterford is intriguing. Doesn’t look harsh to me because it’s so “broken” so I’m scared it wouldn’t work with my leaner. I’ll try anything tho’; it’s so frustrating. But isn’t a Waterford kinda lika Dr. Bristol/french link kinda snaffle action but not reall snafflish. I dunno…
In the back of my pea brain is some old sage advice from some old foxhunters regarding bits…just my 2 cents here to pass it on.
Trying closing the horses mouth with any bit you’re using before you switch to another one. Flash attachment/figure 8’s! Gives the bit a chance to really work without him being able to evade with mouth opening etc. Applies to ANY bit.
Try changing bits frequently to get horse to listen to it. Use a different bit hacking than hunting. Any bit requires some set of muscles are being used and when they build them up=they can get strong and can more effectively fight the bit. If you never let them to build those muscles up; they can’t get an advantage over you & the bit. When you change bits for this…be sure to change the main mechanical action of the bit ie: switch from snaffle action to curb action for example. Don’t use 2 similar bits; need to make a difference to get a response. Mullen mouth pelham hunting vs. snaffle at home for example. You’ll know you’re accomplishing something when the horse tires in his neck out hunting and gets better during the length of hunt or hangs his head some…:winkgrin:
IMHO too many folks are too weany when changing bits. My favorite is the person who goes from a plain snaffle to a mild twisted snaffle! 
I need something more…emphatic!! Go for it! Don’t be askeered!! 
