WB Sales in Alberta

[Ssporthorses]

@Leah A;6564954

Absolutely, the biggest market is the amateur market! … Having said that, breeding for the amateur market is a whole other kettle of fish, and a tricky one to get appropriate results.

Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. THe biggest market is the amateur market looking for a safe, sound, solid horse! That’s why the young horse sales need to be focused on selling their horses to people in a position to put the miles into them to make them amateur horses…

AND… in regards to breeding for the amateur… High quality should still be sought and there will undoubtably be excellent amateur horses in the mix! I try and focus on temperament but also put a LOT of time into my young horses to make them amateur friendly.

[Leah_A]

That’s entirely true…ideally we should all be breeding for the upper levels with an emphasis on temperament (in general). That way when we don’t get the upper level talent, as inevitably happens, we’ve still got enough talent for the amateur and with good rideability. When we breed for amateur talent we may end up with less than in every regard and absolutely no market and no way to recoup costs.

Here is an interesting link about the CSHA auction (only posting info about the auction and not the CSHA promotion at the bottom): http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=c8gsnveab&v=001hkrcbzQb4VWswvytROmnzVHACl92s6cEFoi1YDDd-EYSo6hJiV4cOoR_wJBQFHQRt54kWxzw-1W2c-ieqU1CX8qxm5Ol4UHZTeipTFjPEVML2lXAT1UFrW8LaX_CFhbcLe7fNsDthjmLUVWkITDHUAXdp6KP_LuyikFVz9ZrtKmJeQbUCRQLXXcfWbtpExOJj9s5nBMcsW4ZBVggecHVGOMn3yySLAsSKj1y0p9WAVVYmUgP8VXpzeYLso4nLiA-

I especially like Janko van de Legeweg’s quote: “It’s so important to have both a good stud and a good mother-line to produce a quality sport horse,” he said.

[icon]

This makes me feel there is hope for both sales to prosper for the future.

Winter: sorry about the NUTS part, it just boils my blood that the concept of breeders bringing their young stock out to a public sale in less than stellar turn-out is ok(not your opinion–but we see it at the fall sale). THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE or the “Dumping place” will continue.

This thread is super good because its bringing out what WE as breeders, buyers ect see and would like to change.

It would be nice to see this in the hands of both sales so they can review and see what the “public” is saying–good and bad, to make changes to put on better sales.

just my 2 cents

[Donella]

Lots of good points and Leah, you struck the nail on the head when it comes to breeding policies of the CWB, and you said it better than I could have too! I think it will take a long time to build the kind of mare base here that will help the registry produce in accordance with it’s goals but education of it’s members in these regards should be very important. But then again if the leaders of a registry are seemingly oblivious of the concept of a motherline then that is a big part of the problem!!.

And just as a side note…the pedigree readers in the CWB sale (and show last year) are oblivious to warmblood horses. It is so frustrating to be sitting in the crowd listening to the announcer struggle to pronounce names. I would rather just read it myself. The CSH idea of having someone super knowledgeable come and elaborate on the pedigree of all of the sales horses is super smart.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Leah A;6564954]
.

stoicfish, I’m not sure that I want to get involved evaluating a horse belonging to someone else or their breeding goals for that product (although I’d like to know the thought process behind that). However, I’m curious why you posted that horse (http://www.fallclassicsale.com/lots.php?id=13) in particular? A genuine question in an effort to see what others see…As a side note, this filly is one of the only ones that comes from an easily traceable motherline and is anchored in Holstein. For those interested, this is her motherline, Holsteiner stamm 5951: http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/family/408073[/QUOTE]

For the simple reason that I thought that she is a lovely filly. And like any sale that gets posted on COTH, we tend to make note of the ones we appreciate. She is also a good representation of horses that should be bred. And she is for sale!
I think the above conversation is better than writing a whole group off. Constructive criticism definitely has value.
And please don’t think I do not value the motherline. There is some nice dam’s who’s offspring are in the sale.

And while most of the time I agree that people should shoot for the top. Realistically, not all breeders shoot for ammy friendly temperament and that is very true. There are a ton of horses that even pro’s don’t want to deal with. And for instance many dressage horse have the physical talent but not the mind to be called a success, still not a ammy horse. That is like setting a rabbit on the back of a German Sheppard for a ride. So, with that, there is room for sound, sane and less than spectacular horses that cost a bit less. How do they cost less if the feed and stud fee and vet cost the same? Because the dam is not a 25k imported warmblood mare. And if we want riders for our horses (aka market) we need entry level horses for young people and beginners. Having said that, I don’t believe a registry should base it’s philosophy around those type of horses. Horses like that do support stallion owners in NA and they have a tough enough go at it. The registry should focus on the best horses possible and help their members to get there and be patient with the education process.
.

[winter]

SO agree about the pedigree reader. Ug. Why not have someone familiar with warmblood breeding?

[key_warmbloods]

Wow, I have to comment to this thread. Most everyone has a pretty good idea of what everyone else should be doing.

Prices of the two sales should not be being compared. That would be like comparing the price of a seedling to a grown tree. Really people, of course the CSH got higher prices for their entries. They were mature, trained successful proven horses. The Fall Classic sale is a breeders sale. A production sale no less. The majority of horses at this sale are not even started. How can you compare? There is a huge difference between Sept and Oct in temperatures. By October the woolies are starting to affect the horses. Breeders horses dont always live in heated stables. (In europe either) its not always possible to keep the hair off; and to shave them all then what if they dont go to an indoor barn; because they all dont. The horses at the CSH sale were all sold, So, lets bash the Fall Classic Sale because their dont but remember, The FCS sells alot more than 14!

This is all irrelevant! Why tear one down to build up the other especially when one has not run yet and you may be influencing attendance. Canada needs more sales. not less. And there is a niche for them all. I for one would love to see a Dressage Horse Auction Sale. (Any Interest?)

Lots of comments about what the number of horses vs buyers etc and some of the lots not selling. This is discussed every year at the AGM. I have personally tried to get many changes but where are all you people who know how to “do it right”? The FCS started as an inexpensive alternative for members to market horses. The majority of voters at the meeting are still the same as the ones that started the sale 18 years ago because they are the doers. They didnt want the pomp and circumstance they just want to sell horses; if we want it then WE need to do it. THEY dont need to do it. Its so easy to be critical but half a dozen people volunteer for months to give breeders the opportunity to have a place to sell their horse.

Lots of very hurtful comments have been made to and about people who have worked very hard for their industry. Last I checked we were in Canada and with that right comes the right to run our lives (and therefor breeding Programs) as we see fit. I have mostly imported mares with strong breeding but I have not yet produced out of my program an Olympic Eventer, some of the programs that have been smeared have. I have good quality imported mares, but a young breeding program, I have not yet produced mares that have attained the CW elite status thru their progeny and performance. Some of the breeders that are being called down have. The CW Elite mare status is designed in mirror image of the Hannoverian Verband) Yes, its a big deal to achieve it.

If we could put our energy together in a positive way there would be no stopping us. Canada could very quickly become a force to be reckoned with in the horse world because contrary to belief of some of the posters, their are some absolutely fabulous horses being bred and raised in Canada; Europe has a luxury to their breeding programs, they have a secondary market for all the “lesser” horses but we frown on eating horses here so we cannot breed those numbers to produce our gems. We have to be that much more diligent in the paring of our Sires and Dams. I for one would much rather my fees go into my country to support my country’s industry, and put my country on the map for warmblood breeding than support over breeding in other countries.

So lets not sit back and tell everyone else how things should be done, lets work together and show the world how the warmblood sporthorse breeders in Canada can make a difference. I am so excited to meet you all at the next meetings and events. United we stand and all that

Respectfully
Doreen Kulcsar

[rodawn]

Very good points Doreen and I agree. Comparing the 2 sales is apples and oranges. They meet very different goals and criterion.

Perhaps one day the Canadian sales will be able to have separate days for the dressage, the jumpers/hunters and eventers, but for now, the base stock numbers are insufficient to allow such and so it is all grouped together. This is fine for now and it works for the here and now. It means we have the freedom to revisit various issues, whatever they may be, at later dates.

I have seen great leaps and bounds to the breeding stock base in Canada over the last 30 years. We have leaped forward in mere years what took some countries in Europe generations to do and we did it by importing good stock and making use of frozen semen, riding on the coat tails of successful European breeders, and, as Donella rightly pointed out, improving the Canadian warmblood mare base. And I agree wholeheartedly with Donella’s very point about this. Well, I think everyone here does, she just stated it out loud.

While it’s wonderful to applaud how far we have come, the breeding goal of the breeder never ends - it’s always toward the better and better and it does take time to continue to improve the mare base.

And it’s the mare families that make us or break us.

The beauty about Canadian Warmblood is breeders have the right and ability to make full use of approved stallions from a variety of registries. We are not limited to just CW stallions. The pool of CW stallions is getting better and bigger all the time, and we need to continue to support our CW stallions, but still there are times when it is very appropriate to look back to the HanV, GOV, WestV, HolstV, Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium and the like for that special influx of new blood. This will, I firmly believe, become the STRONGEST positive point for the CW livestock base. We have some advantages. While other books are closed, Canadians have a wide open market and it should be used to our great advantage!

Education: This is a big point too. HanV, Amer.Han, as well as KWPN, Holstein as well as others, very actively and proactively educate their breeders - what lines work best with each other, which stallions work best with which types of mares, discussion of what types of foals are being produced by the stallions (stamping ability and quality), emphasis on background education on lineages (where they began, how they evolved, what horses descended from same) seminars and breeding directional goals are reiterated, published, presented and put forth to the breeders in an endlessly energetic measure to protect their bloodlines and inform the breeders of the best practices to implement in their breeding program. I think, eventually, amongst the many goals of CW as a growing organization, this is one very key area that needs to be seriously pounced on. This would be very important for the “been-there-done-that” breeders to perform so the new breeders can learn and continue to learn at the feet of those days-past highly successful breeders.

Just now, I’m reading a powerful publication from Hanoverian Verband discussing in depth various bloodlines, the historic development of those lineages, the powerful dam lineages, etc. This was a free publication!! It’s information is powerful! I would like to see such things put forth by Canadian warmblood. This is a bit off topic, but in some ways, not really off topic, because it all stems down to the quality we want to see in these Auctions and how our lineages/stamm lines and breeding directional goals place Canadian Warmbloods on the World Market.

[icon]

Doreen:

1. this is a public forum–people can express their opinions and views, and sometimes not all is what any Associations wants to hear but they should listen to what is being said–digest it and see if things can be changed. I hear what you are saying in regards to getting people to step up and help out–from my experience(not all bad) it falls on some deaf ears(not all ears).

2. Both sales prices are relevant and should be compared–to see where/what the market will support. The Fall Sale is not just a young horse sale–there are horses in the same age range as the CSH. The age range for CSH was 3 to 8–not all were WELL SEASONED show mounts.

3. Yes the FCS is later in the year but I and other sellers have consigned well turned out horses despite the weather and they did not look like they were pulled off the field–point here is not the Fall Sale but the some of the breeders showing up unprepared(or not caring)–maybe people should be looking at the indv person not the Sale.

4. In any forum there will be some bashing(sad but true human nature), but to improve ANYTHING one must look at both sides, good and bad and the ugly.

5. I agree that the Canadian warmblood/sport breeding program is still young but its moving forward via frozen semen, better dam lines and not just breeding a mare cuz you can. So must the venues/sales must follow suit.

6. The CSH sale was a nice change, for all the items mentioned–I attended and I was super impressed with how they did it.

7. Fall Sale and all their volunteers and people have built a sale that has provided a service for breeders for many years-that has worked for the most part well but with the changing economy(its $$$ to buy young horses that have to sit for a year or 2 before being able to enter into work/show), I am not clear in the $$ to run this event but with the # of horses I know from experience it takes alot.

8. I still think there is too many horses at the fall sale–the supply far exceeds the demand.

9. I now look forward to both sales–its exciting to see what people are breeding and presenting.

10. due to the fact we use frozen semen I need to have my dna parental verified correctly and have tried to bring this to the notice of the association(cwb) and it has fallen on deaf ears for more than 4 years so for this fact alone I have chosen a different registry.

Jennifer Stephenson

[Ibehorsepoor]

VERY WELL SAID!!!

[QUOTE=key warmbloods;6565338]
Wow, I have to comment to this thread. Most everyone has a pretty good idea of what everyone else should be doing.

Prices of the two sales should not be being compared. That would be like comparing the price of a seedling to a grown tree. Really people, of course the CSH got higher prices for their entries. They were mature, trained successful proven horses. The Fall Classic sale is a breeders sale. A production sale no less. The majority of horses at this sale are not even started. How can you compare? There is a huge difference between Sept and Oct in temperatures. By October the woolies are starting to affect the horses. Breeders horses dont always live in heated stables. (In europe either) its not always possible to keep the hair off; and to shave them all then what if they dont go to an indoor barn; because they all dont. The horses at the CSH sale were all sold, So, lets bash the Fall Classic Sale because their dont but remember, The FCS sells alot more than 14!

This is all irrelevant! Why tear one down to build up the other especially when one has not run yet and you may be influencing attendance. Canada needs more sales. not less. And there is a niche for them all. I for one would love to see a Dressage Horse Auction Sale. (Any Interest?)

Lots of comments about what the number of horses vs buyers etc and some of the lots not selling. This is discussed every year at the AGM. I have personally tried to get many changes but where are all you people who know how to “do it right”? The FCS started as an inexpensive alternative for members to market horses. The majority of voters at the meeting are still the same as the ones that started the sale 18 years ago because they are the doers. They didnt want the pomp and circumstance they just want to sell horses; if we want it then WE need to do it. THEY dont need to do it. Its so easy to be critical but half a dozen people volunteer for months to give breeders the opportunity to have a place to sell their horse.

Lots of very hurtful comments have been made to and about people who have worked very hard for their industry. Last I checked we were in Canada and with that right comes the right to run our lives (and therefor breeding Programs) as we see fit. I have mostly imported mares with strong breeding but I have not yet produced out of my program an Olympic Eventer, some of the programs that have been smeared have. I have good quality imported mares, but a young breeding program, I have not yet produced mares that have attained the CW elite status thru their progeny and performance. Some of the breeders that are being called down have. The CW Elite mare status is designed in mirror image of the Hannoverian Verband) Yes, its a big deal to achieve it.

If we could put our energy together in a positive way there would be no stopping us. Canada could very quickly become a force to be reckoned with in the horse world because contrary to belief of some of the posters, their are some absolutely fabulous horses being bred and raised in Canada; Europe has a luxury to their breeding programs, they have a secondary market for all the “lesser” horses but we frown on eating horses here so we cannot breed those numbers to produce our gems. We have to be that much more diligent in the paring of our Sires and Dams. I for one would much rather my fees go into my country to support my country’s industry, and put my country on the map for warmblood breeding than support over breeding in other countries.

So lets not sit back and tell everyone else how things should be done, lets work together and show the world how the warmblood sporthorse breeders in Canada can make a difference. I am so excited to meet you all at the next meetings and events. United we stand and all that

Respectfully
Doreen Kulcsar[/QUOTE]

[Forte]

I didn’t attend either of the sales, so can’t comment on those specifically. However, I am disappointed in the disparaging comments made about CWHBA. Although I am no longer a CWHBA member, I still feel that the registry has a great deal of merit and is modelled after the very successful Hanoverian model. I don’t think you can lump all of the breeders or all of the horses of one registry together. There are good and bad in both CWHBA and other all other registries. Each horse should be looked at as an individual. Although I agree that IN GENERAL, CWHBA needs to look at improving it’s mare base, it’s come a long way in the last 10 years. There are also many breeders of GOV, HAN, Dutch horses with less than stellar mares. Sometimes the horses look good on papers, but you may find that that ster, keur, premium, imported, SPS mare is actually only a broodmare because she’s lame or too crazy to ride.

[Leah_A]

There is never an intent to be hurtful, only to voice some opinions, offer some education, and make some change. I apologize if any of my comments were hurtful to anyone. Doreen, as an aside, I actually had a friend out at your place recently looking at your Blue Hors Zack/Redford foal. I had no idea where she was until she mentioned the pedigree of the foal and then I guessed it was you. When she asked me how I guessed, I replied that it was because you have some good mares and use some good, interesting stallions.

It needs to be made clear that there are many of us who have tried to make change in a variety of ways. Some positive change has happened, some has not, some is in the works. This thread, in general, is not simply a number of people sitting back and simply complaining (although, that in itself, can be helpful as well in the sense that it, at least, gets people talking which can result in change).

The whole debate puts me in a personal dilemma…I want to breed good horses, Holsteiners specifically. The way it sits in Canada now I am not interested in working with any of the associations (although if this first CSHA sale is an indication of future sales and if it continues to be run by the same people I would likely consign a horse). However, Canadian breeding has much potential. I’m torn between really becoming involved and associating myself strongly with a registry that, although I and numerous others don’t have a lot of faith in currently, could, with much continued dedication and tonnes of education, become something to be reckoned with a few generations down the road. Or continuing on a path that has been successful for me, is familiar, and well established with a good reputation. I really want to invest in Canadian breeding, however, it is a risk for me. I’ve registered horses CWHBA in the past and do like having that option, I also attend many of the CWHBA activities (the sale for the past 10 years, free jumping competitions, education days, inspections, etc) as everything is a learning opportunity. Some activities are good, others just make me shake my head. Sometimes it feels overwhelming to think about taking on the challenge. Does anyone else feel that way?

Thank you, everyone, for continuing to have a constructive conversation. It is helping me think about things!

[Donella]

I don’t think anyone is making terrible or rude comments about the CWB registry in general?? I think we all agree that there are great things about the CWB registry, that it’s breeders are breeding some very good horses ect ect. I can absolutely respect where Doreen is coming from and I admire both her program and the effort she has put forth in promoting her breed.

But the fact remains that numerous breeders that I very much respect have tried to work with the CWB registry, tried to become involved only to end up frustrated because the show is basically run by the same few people it always has been run by. Read Jennifer’s comments…she has always been very active and involved in the industry and she has expressed the same issue. Doreen even states in her post that she has tried to have the number of auction horses in the fall sale changed for years but look…nothing has changed. So if they aren’t interested in her opinion, why would they be interested in mine or anyone else’s? She does so much for that organization and yet she clearly has a problem influencing important decisions. I guess I just feel like until the organization is run by different people not much is going to change…maybe I am wrong but that is an opinion I know that I am not alone in holding.

And FWIW my guy has volunteered his time to go out and do the test riding for the CWB show this weekend. I know that that is not a huge commitment, but it IS something. We were impressed by the fact that good judges were selected and it is great that breeders have an opportunity like this bring out their young horses!

Does anyone else feel that way?

I think we posted at the same time, but yes, I feel exactly the same as you!! Couldn’t have said it better myself.

[Leah_A]

Yes, Donella, we are definitely on the same page !

[stoicfish]

@Leah A;6566549

There is never an intent to be hurtful, only to voice some opinions, offer some education, and make some change. I apologize if any of my comments were hurtful to anyone. Doreen, as an aside, I actually had a friend out at your place recently looking at your Blue Hors Zack/Redford foal. I had no idea where she was until she mentioned the pedigree of the foal and then I guessed it was you. When she asked me how I guessed, I replied that it was because you have some good mares and use some good, interesting stallions.

I would suggest that the people that are in the organization that are striving for change do not need an education, suggestion, or opinions. They need people at the meetings to vote. Jen did put her money where her mouth is but without other people to stand up with her and people like Doreen and others, things will not change. That is why people get so frustrated when they work their butts off to make things better, run up against the wall because there is not enough people that feel the same way and then get criticized from the outside. But if the outside all stepped in, there would be no choice but to change. It is a democracy among the members. If you do not come and vote and be a part of it, you are not really helping when you make suggestions. That is how it works. Seriously. It is solely a volunteer organization and for every idea there is hours behind it. So they need people to come and vote for people, ideas and such and then they need the volunteer base to effect those changes.
As far as worrying about someone who breeds average horses…I think you are romanticizing the European registries. They have those breeders too, I have met them. Just last nite a very German fellow was talking about eating the culls or the ones that don’t work. They tend to breed numbers and see what works.
The registries don’t worry about those breeders, they concentrate on giving the opportunity to the good ones. That is like saying you won’t go to a University because there are some students that fail. There always is, you judge the University on the success stories and the possibilities. CW has took the mare books straight from the Hanoverian Verband. The only difference is that Canadians have a younger version that hasn’t matured to the point of having the same quality overall. Not going to get there without some work and time.

We always hear about the rights of democracy, but the major responsibility of it is participation
.

[winter]

These are interesting comments and it’s beenvery good to hear breeders voicing their opinions and concerns.
As a rider who breeds a few horses for personal use, the sales were of interest to me but I never really gave much thought to registries and how they are run. This has been very informative.

[Leah_A]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;6566702]
I would suggest that the people that are in the organization that are striving for change do not need an education, suggestion, or opinions.[/QUOTE] I would disagree here quite strongly. Some of the people in positions of making decisions and offering education, without a doubt, need some further education themselves and they need suggestions and opinions from a variety of sources. Which brings me to your second point, which is valid.

[QUOTE =stoicfish;6566702] They need people at the meetings to vote… But if the outside all stepped in, there would be no choice but to change.[/QUOTE] This is true and is something I’ve debated doing for some time. I’d love for other like minded people to try as well. I, however, feel like I may invest time and energy only to continue to bang my head against the wall. I’m getting closer, though, to doing what I can.

[QUOTE =stoicfish;6566702] I think you are romanticizing the European registries. They have those breeders too, I have met them. Just last nite a very German fellow was talking about eating the culls or the ones that don’t work. They tend to breed numbers and see what works.[/QUOTE] I don’t romanticize and am well educated (although always furthering my knowledge). The breeding of numbers is untrue for two of the top ranked studbooks for the production of jumping horses, Holsteiners and SF. They have two of the smallest books and with the highest percentage of successful results. They are incredibly selective, incredibly well informed, very well documented, and the success speaks for itself. I researched this fairly extensively many years ago when developing a breeding program and model my program on the Holsteiner philosophies. Of course, not every offspring is the hoped for result but the percentages are quite high, especially as jumping ability is quite heritable especially through the mare families.

Regarding average horses (and slaughter…that’s a whole other debate that is a passion of mine), my own personal marker is that if what is being produced is not better than the best OTTB that is already on the ground, it should not be bred. I do not want to be breeding horses that would take away a home from a horse that needs it. TB race breeding is, again, another topic, and one that we are also trying to effect change in as they, most certainly, breed with numbers hoping for one good one and throwing away the rest.

I appreciate the work that has gone into simply developing a registry and getting it in the WBFSH. That was a huge task to take on and I am glad of the ambition the founding members and those since had.

[Leah_A]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;6566702]
I would suggest that the people that are in the organization that are striving for change do not need an education, suggestion, or opinions.[/QUOTE]

I would disagree here quite strongly. Some of the people in positions of making decisions and offering education, without a doubt, need some further education themselves and they need suggestions, facts, and opinions from a variety of sources. (I am not suggesting that it is me who should do the educating. I’m saying that the heads of the organization should be people that the members can turn to for a wealth of breeding information and I don’t feel that is in place). Which brings me to your second point, which is valid.

@stoicfish;6566702

They need people at the meetings to vote… But if the outside all stepped in, there would be no choice but to change.

This is true and is something I’ve debated doing for some time. I’d love for other like minded people to try as well. I, however, feel like I may invest time and energy only to continue to bang my head against the wall. I’m getting closer, though, to doing what I can.

@stoicfish;6566702

I think you are romanticizing the European registries. They have those breeders too, I have met them. Just last nite a very German fellow was talking about eating the culls or the ones that don’t work. They tend to breed numbers and see what works.

I don’t romanticize and am always trying to further my knowledge. The breeding of numbers is untrue for two of the top ranked studbooks for the production of jumping horses, Holsteiners and SF. They have two of the smallest books and with the highest percentage of successful results. They are incredibly selective, incredibly well informed, very well documented, and the success speaks for itself. I researched this fairly extensively many years ago when developing a breeding program and model my program on the Holsteiner philosophies. Of course, not every offspring is the hoped for result but the percentages are quite high, especially as jumping ability is quite heritable especially through the mare families.

Regarding average horses (and slaughter…that’s a whole other debate that is a passion of mine), my own personal marker is that if what is being produced is not better than the best OTTB that is already on the ground, it should not be bred. I do not want to be breeding horses that would take away a home from a horse that needs it. TB race breeding is, again, another topic, and one that we are also trying to effect change in as they, most certainly, breed with numbers hoping for one good one and throwing away the rest.

I appreciate the work that has gone into simply developing a registry and getting it in the WBFSH. That was a huge task to take on and I am glad of the ambition the founding members and those since had.

PS: Sorry! I can’t quite figure out how to multi-quote…

[stoicfish]

I don’t romanticize and am always trying furthering my knowledge. The breeding of numbers is untrue for two of the top ranked studbooks for the production of jumping horses, Holsteiners and SF. They have two of the smallest books and with the highest percentage of successful results. They are incredibly selective, incredibly well informed, very well documented, and the success speaks for itself
.

Right and where do the culls go…those are small compared to the other European registries. Compare it to the numbers breed in Canada and those are huge numbers…and they still send stuff to the dinner plate.
Hope you do join. And others. Then all the good ideas can become realized.

[Donella]

The registries don’t worry about those breeders, they concentrate on giving the opportunity to the good ones.

The problem arises when a person/s of major influence in a registry IS one of those breeders.

'm saying that the heads of the organization should be people that the members can turn to for a wealth of breeding information and I don’t feel that is in place). Which brings me to your second point, which is valid.

Exactly!!

CW has took the mare books straight from the Hanoverian Verband

Well there isn’t much similarity between the books or their methods of selection. A different number of books and very different mare/breed selection at all levels.