Please note that it was not my remark about the x-rays, but jmjhp who made the remarks.
Also, I was not clear whether jmjhp’s remarks were about horses obtained in the sport horse sale (which is what I presumed was the case), which has already taken place just recently, or if it was about horses being looked at for the upcoming warmblood sale on October 13-14.
[QUOTE=Wild One;6574651]
Just another case of the ongoing civil war between the two registries, IMHO. With the recent demise of the horse industry, and declining entries in shows - it really SUCKS that Canadian breeders can’t get together on things, because there is always strength in numbers.[/QUOTE]
I might disagree with you. The 2 registries do not have a civil war. They have 2 very different mandates and serve different purposes. Canadian Sport Horse is a registry for all sporthorses. Recently on CoTH there was a thread about Thoroughbreds being bred specifically as sporthorses. The CSHA could be such a registry for Canadian TB breeders wishing to go this route - off topic, but the thought hit my brain and compelled me to type it.
Recently, the CWHBA (Canadian Warmblood) was granted by the government to be defined as a DISTINCT BREED meaning they follow a stricter protocol as to breed distinctiveness, and the requirements, breeding mandates and blood stock parameters are more defined. Now most likely Doreen or Marilyn could state things far more eloquently than I ever could because they were either right in the thick of the process personally and/or working closely with the very people who were diligently, persistently and carefully working very, very hard for a number of YEARS to get this done. But from what I understand now, and in my own rather simplistic description of it, is that now with the distinct breed designation that every horse registered with Canadian Warmblood must have proven pedigree that traces back to a very specifically named group of 12 (or is it 15?) stallions serving as foundational sires. Foundational sires such as Fling, Detektiv, and others. I had the whole list, but I have managed to misplace it. This includes those breeders who choose to use Frozen Semen from Europe - those stallions must prove their lineage traces back to the foundational sires so that the resulting foal may be subsequently registered.
This is not the same issue as requiring DNA parentage for foals. This is another very good requirement implemented since foaling birth year 2011.
Nobody on here can lump CSHA and CWHBA together as being similar. Nor can it be said they are warring factions because they can’t possibly be, considering their mandates are a bit different.
I can only speak to my own thoughts regarding CW - because I see HUGE potential for this studbook, especially now that it has been given the Distinct Breed designation. If anyone knows anything when dealing with the Canadian government, but if you can convince the government you have a bonified and distinct breed that is fundamentally different or more pure than, say, what is found in Canadian Sporthorse, then you have really accomplished something. It was my understanding that for a while there, the government was stating, either define and prove yourselves as a distinct breed, or submit to the order to merge the CSHA and CWHBA registries into one. Yikes! My opinion is this would have resulted in some chaos and perhaps some others might have thought the same. Anyway, people worked extraordinarily hard to get it done. There is more information here: http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com/info.php?page=2011:+AGRICULTURE+MINISTER+APPROVES+ARTICLES+and+BY-LAWS
Growth and change in business is very tough to go through and it is no different for a breed registry. Maybe it’s worse for a new breed registry because the learning curve would be near vertical if you mapped it on a graph. Generally speaking, there are some very impressive things about the CW that I really quite like. I just want to see some tweaks about testing and approvals and quality control measures, and I think the CW will become a registry truly appreciated and respected by even the HanV. The fact CW is willing to bring in inspectors from HanV or other registries is an amazing opportunity to learn from these inspectors and trust their judgement about quality control issues. Personally, I would also like to see CW to host seminars for their breeders using key note speakers who are breeding legends themselves from Europe or elsewhere. The best thing for breeders to improve their breeding programs is access to learning materials/seminars/courses.
As a group here, we should keep the discussion away from personal stuff and go on with the issues. Procurement of ideas and ways to implement ideas are what proves to be most instrumental affecting positive change.
I’ve said it before and I will repeat myself again - I believe CW has enormous potential and work needs to be done to get it there.
Charmb, great post
Honestly though, I am not trying to turn this thread into a debate about the merits and drawbacks of an open studbook, I was just pointing out that the CWB books and breeding policies are not similar nor are they modeled after the Hanoverian ones as a couple of people here claimed.
As for the x-ray issue, you are going to find horses of all warmblood breeds that have DOD’s, has nothing to do with the CWB horses in particular. But fwiw, the CSH horse auction horses had to have their x-rays ( many more views as well) approved by an equine vet before being accepted into the sale which I thought was a good idea as the market here almost demands that.
Thank you Rodawn for that very informative post, it helped a lot to clarify the distinction. It was always my understanding that CSH was a type registry while CW was a breed registry.
[QUOTE=Donella;6576843]
Charmb, great post
Honestly though, I am not trying to turn this thread into a debate about the merits and drawbacks of an open studbook, I was just pointing out that the CWB books and breeding policies are not similar nor are they modeled after the Hanoverian ones as a couple of people here claimed.
As for the x-ray issue, you are going to find horses of all warmblood breeds that have DOD’s, has nothing to do with the CWB horses in particular. But fwiw, the CSH horse auction horses had to have their x-rays ( many more views as well) approved by an equine vet before being accepted into the sale which I thought was a good idea as the market here almost demands that.[/QUOTE]
Ok, I will only make one more suggestion. Cw was incorporated in 1990, 22 years ago. The books have changed. And I know they used the Hanoverian as a blueprint for creating the association, including the founders going to German for help and suggestions. Honestly, that is exactly where the books come from. But, ask the Verband themselves and see what they say.
Canada has more variation because of the nature of the mare base . But the Germans have a pre-stud book also and those mares can get into the main mare book. http://www.hannoveraner.com/2414.html They only need 3 gens to be in the stud book.
As far as philosophy - you are right there. We are much more like the Dutch. Incorporating a wide range of Wb types and therefore more of an open book. It has worked very well for them.
Ok, I will only make one more suggestion. Cw was incorporated in 1990, 22 years ago. The books have changed. And I know they used the Hanoverian as a blueprint for creating the association, including the founders going to German for help and suggestions. Honestly, that is exactly where the books come from. But, ask the Verband themselves and see what they say.
Canada has more variation because of the nature of the mare base . But the Germans have a pre-stud book also and those mares can get into the main mare book. http://www.hannoveraner.com/2414.html They only need 3 gens to be in the stud book
I don’t know what they used to do (the CW’s) but quite frankly I think 22 years ago they would have had an impossible go of things if they would have modeled their books and policies after the Hanoverians considering the mare base here then. I have a feeling that is what certain people tell their members because they simply are on two opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to breeding policies. Just because some of the names of the books are the same doesn’t mean they function the same way.
To explain further, the Hanoverian books are for Hanoverian branded horses and for the odd individual from a very specific population IF (and only if) they show qualities needed to be an ASSET to the breed. All warmbloods that come from the accepted populations are only able to be placed in the highest book IF they score high enough. Either the mare is a benefit to the genetic pool or it is not. There is no grey area. TB, Arabian and Anglo mares can be place in the stud book (middle book) as well but ONLY mares from these three populations IF they score high enough and of course branded Hano mares if they don’t score high enough to be placed in the MSB. In essence the only horses allowed to contribute genetically aside from Hanoverian branded mares are horses that can achieve the same scores a Han branded mare has to to be elligible for Elite Mare status (in Canada and Germany they need the 1A prize as well) ie she must be better than the average Hanoverian mare.
Canadian Warmbloods basically have a book for every type of mare that could be presented and any mare that is placed in any of these books can contribute genetically on some level. This is, as you can see, a very different scheme from the one mentioned above.
Also, CWs do not look at blood the same way the Hanoverians do. Trakehners, Tbs, Arabs and Anglo Arabs are not seen as assets to the breed, they are placed in lower books and are not eligible for MSB entry. Again, I am not arguing for or against here but really, looking at the two registries how can you find any real similarities at all between the two in these regards?? They are on opposite ends of the spectrum, they do not share similar breeding policies and I don’t see evidence that they ever have.
As far as philosophy - you are right there. We are much more like the Dutch. Incorporating a wide range of Wb types and therefore more of an open book. It has worked very well for them
Yes, it has. A studbook can be too closed for it’s own good, just as it can be too open. I won’t argue with you there.
I have not read the whole thread, so not sure if this has been mentioned yet. My former coach bred CWHBA and my gelding is also registered CWHBA. I’ve had quite extensive experience with the organization. As a potential buyer, I was MUCH more impressed by the CSHA sale. Yes, they had fewer horses, but their marketing strategy was bounds and leaps better than CWHBA. Each horse had photos of a clean, well groomed horse presented properly and a video to showcase the horse’s training and ability. I also feel as if the riding horse quality is overall higher for the CSHA auction. Again, that could be due to the smaller number of horses, or more targeted pool of horses, but the riding horses available in the CWHBA auction seem to vary from very little/amateur training to training/showing in a professional program, to everything in between. From my experience, the CWHBA auction is where many people go to get a warmblood prospect rather inexpensively (which can be seen in the auction results from last year which were quite poor).
Donella,
You must also remember that they must follow the rules of the Canadian gov. regarding breeds. There is a framework that must be met in order to be complient. Do not say they do not value Tb’s and Arabs, they just cannot say they are WB’s. They are breeds seperate from WB according to Gov breed definition.
This has been a really intersting read. This is the first time ill be attending both-so be interesting to see the different quality of horses in the flesh
I’ve been to the fall classic sales a few times over the past few years, and there is definitely both ends of the scale. There are some really lovely horses, and then there’s the some that are, well, just not. Overall though, I definitely think the quality of horses in general has been improving over the past few years. I think if the organization can keep moving forward and improving, there is a ton of potential for the Canadian registries.
I think the CSHA sale was absolutely great, well organized, well run, and looking at all the work and prep they did beforehand, it was no wonder that those horses commanded a FAR higher price than they would have gone for a the fall sale. They definitely marketed it extremely well, and everyone looked at it as a higher quality, more prestigious sale. Maybe if the CWHBA did something similar to that for their June sale, prices wouldn’t be wouldn’t so dismal for the breeder. Don’t get me wrong, if I had the funds I would be picking something up at the fall sale, it is definitely a buyer’s market right now! But I know a few breeders don’t plan to consign anything at the CWHBA sales for the next foreseeable future, it’s just not worth it to them. They’d rather hold out for that private buyer instead of letting nice horses go for peanuts:no:
Very interesting discussion though. No matter what, there is always room for improvement for sure.
Does anyone have the results (or link if it’s available online) from the Fall Classic Sale yesterday?
I do 
I think everyone was pretty pleased- markets were up from last year.
I’m just heading home and will type them up for you all!
Ok, here we go.
Voilà 
Wow!! Thanks for that marathon typing job :).
Thanks for posting! A lot of scratches!
No problem 
was a good excuse not to read the work emails!
I know at least 3 of the “scratches” were sold in the few days leading up to the auction, but not sure about the others!
4 horses were sold to New York and 2 to Illinois as well
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