I have no horse in this race (haha) but if my trainer said hey, we’re going to Florida but it’s at WEC, not usef rated but still run like an A show - and I wanted to go to Florida - I’d absolutely go. I am an ammy and show for nice facilities, good experience, and maybe if I’m lucky a little classic money. I don’t care about indoors or points or even if USEF tracks my results. I think there are a few barns who will find that appeal over HITS or WEF - those with a crew that just want to “show in Florida” and enjoy the experience and get a nice picture of their horse showing :lol:
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Same. My horse can’t hold a candle to hunters at the top of the Ammy USEF divisions so I wouldn’t even entertain going to WEF. But show at an unrated show with the possibility of winning some decent prize money at a state of the art facility? I’d strongly consider making the trip.
WEC wasn’t able to get a mileage rule exemption so they got creative with how they were going to put pressure on USEF about it. Good for them. If this forces USEF to overhaul/eliminate the mileage rule, it will be a good thing for shows all over the country in the long run.
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Soo, tell us about the water issue? I am not familiar with it.
We run the gamut out here. Some don’t have it, for others it’s optional, and some require it. I paid $30 the last time, for a five-day show. They do provide notes about what each horse was doing when they came by (every two hours?) so presumably they’d catch something. Trainer gets a full report the next morning. It does not seem like an entirely bad thing.
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Just got to read the horse sport article and Struzzieri has a lot of nerve to talk about WEC and the Roberts family the way he did. The rundown facilities and piss poor management at various HITS shows has been a common complaint for many years.
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This whole water story only has to do with WEC’s request to expand well beyond their current scope. They already have approval for everything built on the show grounds with water and all other utilities taken care of. So they can open and host all these shows on the current campus. The water issue comes into play with their much larger request to expand their ability to build much more commercial, retail and hotels.
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Yeah, I assume they have things figured out for the winter shows. That was the only discussion I could find on potable water. I assume that’s what other posters were alluding to, but if they have more information hopefully they will provide it.
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I am a USEF R hunter judge. I also judge dressage. Comparing dressage to hunters is like comparing apples to kittens. 
In dressage, each rider gets a 5 minute block of time. This allows the judge to stop in between each test and write comments on the score sheet. In the hunter ring, a judge does not get this luxury. If we did the same type of scheduling in the hunter ring, I would be judging well past midnight!
As well, there are scribes in dressage that write down a mark out of 10 for each movement…and each movement has clear instructions in regards to what makes a sufficient movement or an excellent movement. In hunters, the scoring is a lot more complicated and subjective, much like figure skating…as the ENTIRE round is based on style, manners and way of going. There is no such thing as scores for individual movements in the hunter ring. So, while a judge could theoretically consider one jump an 8 out of 10, the judge then also has to consider the approach to that jump, the lead change into the corner, the pace, form, etc., etc…so it is impossible to have a scribe and give a simple X score out of 10 for each jump. Judging hunters is also about what happens in between each jump.
In dressage, you are essentially competing against yourself and no one else and you get ONLY your score sheet back…not a score sheet containing everyone else’s individual movement scores and comments. When a dressage judge judges a class, there is absolutely NO thought to comparing one rider against the other and putting riders in order of how you think they should place. You simply give each rider a score and move on to the next rider. How those horses end up placing is completely up to the calculator in the show office.
While in theory it would be nice if the hunter score cards were posted, I will explain the down side and why it doesn’t work well. In hunters, the judge’s job is to remember every single round of that same class and place the riders and/or horses in the appropriate order. Asking to see the judge’s card in the hunters means you are also getting to see how everyone else did in that round, and that is not necessarily fair. Because things can happen quickly in the hunter ring and the judge must remember every round and everything that happened in every round, each judge using their own version of “short hand” to narrate a story for each round, which also makes it impossible to have a scribe…as the scribe’s short hand might be totally different than the judge’s short hand, which would make it tough to go back and review the class if the judge needed to do so. Because each judge has their own version of short hand, most judge’s cards just look like a bunch of chicken scratch with no real explanation. Things written on a judge’s card like NAH, WR, TM, LF & MO are only going to make sense to myself. If you are lucky, the judge will have used numerical scoring, which could at least give you a final score…but many judge’s do not use numerical scoring on their cards (unless required to do open numerical scoring), and the score also does not tell you what went wrong or right during the round. Also, what one judge calls an 80 might be a 76 to another judge…so it is a moot point.
Here are two examples of hunter score cards I found through doing a Google search that helps explain the above information.
http://equestriancoachblog.com/wp-co…ured_image.jpg
https://www.horseillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/hunter-show-scorecard.gif
Hopefully this helps explain the reasoning in regards to why hunter score cards are not posted at USEF or Equestrian Canada shows and why competitors do not receive any comments back about their rounds.
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So- only hearsay, but from my neighbor who owns a property 2.5 miles from the grounds, was down last weekend and said there was an issue with potable water and the size of the facility. I guess it was taken up with the township? I do not have any other info and I wouldn’t bet on it, but I had heard that there were issues with the facility and the possibility of needing its own water treatment system. Take is with a grain of salt. I am sure there is some issue, otherwise the neighbors wouldn’t be buzzing about it. Maybe it isn’t a big deal, because we all know how things get blown up. Y’all know how people like to talk (kind of like I just did).
Looking at the article- this may be what they are talking about. But neighbor indicated that it was not a resolved issue. Hope it is on track to open.
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I have a farm in ocala, and I would go south horse shows or not. This year I’m going to WEC assuming the water is sorted out. They are starting to invoice for stalls so presumably they feel confident about it.
i have all green horses that will maybe do 2’6-2’9 hunters and a jumper who will do 1m probably. so I really don’t care about USEF. Also, if you are familiar with HITS, you know that options to do 2’6 include riding mostly in the worst rings that are small and have bad footing. Further, if you need to put a young horse on the longe line, safe footing is few and far between. Permanent stalls (only option) at Wec are 2500 for 12 weeks vs 3000 at HITS. Last year when I got my permanent stalls at hits, I had to bring in sand to get the stalls and mats level enough to even be remotely safe for horses. And there were hypodermic needles scattered throughout the stalls in automatic waterer that sometimes work, sometimes just drip, all with significant algae growing in them. None of the waterers can be removed so another stupid thing in the stall that you horse can get caught on. It was such a filthy disgusting mess, and I had paid for 4 stalls. In my estimation as One exhibitor if I’m paying 12k for stalls, they ought to be safe and clean at the least. This was after management cleaned the barn😡. I’ve toured WEC and the stalls are all comfort matted, w fans installed and rings for your buckets. Longing areas will be have proper footing and lights. It’s dark in the morning most of the winter in Florida.
I am not showing FEI in this lifetime so I have no conflicts. And 5k non pro 2’6 derby for 11 of 12 weeks sounds good. Baby greens are paying money out.
i also trust Roberts to invest more in cleaning protocols for Covid.
i am not surprised they didn’t get more USef dates. Not sure why the mileage rule wouldn’t apply. I bet they will be as the ridge is to wef.
im looking forward to being at a show where they value their customers. I could go on and on about issues with the other facility. I’ll go to HITS when my babies are up for more rated divisions but no need to go if you don’t care about points. Lots of people will do both.
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Here is the target audience. Someone who is not chasing HOY / Finals/ Zone points but rather the average one of us who wants to go have a fun time at a nice facility.\
If they offer a series awards for their shows, more the better.
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Once again this “water issue” was only in relation to the requested expansion of the entire Golden Ocala/Wec development. The original show facility was already fine with a developers agreement in place. They just wanted to add more land and make the whole project bigger.
Even that aspect has now essentially been handled it looks like. See this video of the county commisioners meeting where the county and WEC agreed to everything (including a water plant and a fire truck).
http://marionfl.granicus.com/player/clip/186?view_id=1&redirect=true
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But it’s going to cost every bit as much money as HITS… and while WEC’s Palace d’Horse Sport is definitely going to be a treat to show at, is this major development in the whole Alternative Governing Body Game really solving the crux issue of accessibility in this sport? Is this going to be a place where your “can’t hold a candle” amateur hunter is going to finally be able to hold his candle? Thereby winning the prize money that’s supposed to offset the costs? I’m not so sure. The level of competition at their Ohio location has done nothing but steadily rise since opening. And that’s Ohio.
I just… I mean… is NSBA gonna be like… a thing? After allllll the years hollering “Start a new organization!!1!!1!”… is this… It? And if so, does anybody else feel like they kinda maybe sorta woulda liked a say in that?
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NSBA Registration
Horses entered in any NSBA approved futurity or NSBA stand alone classes require registration with NSBA. Horses enrolled in the Breeders Championship Futurity, Color Breeders Championship Futurity or Stallion Incentive Fund, are considered registered, providing the horse is registered in the current owner’s name. The Certificate of Registration is the horse’s official NSBA registration.
Registering your horse with NSBA is easy. If your horse is registered with any one of the eight alliance breed associations or Jockey Club, simply send in a copy of your horses breed registration papers showing current ownership, along with a registration form and $35. Any horse registered with one of NSBA’s breed affiliate organizations can register with NSBA, by filling out the registration form, along with a copy of the breed registration papers showing current ownership.
Unregistered horses are eligible to be registered by submitting color photographs showing full left and right side, and full front and back view, specifically showing all marks of identification. Photographs along with a veterinarian certificate showing proof of age must be submitted at time of application…
NSBA hunter jumper members will benefit from the association’s recordkeeping of horse and rider earnings and show results, as well as expanded year-end awards for the division, including a Hunter Jumper Horse of the Year award. Expanded rules specific to NSBA hunter jumper competition are currently being finalized, and will be published in the NSBA 2021 Official Handbook.
For additional information, please visit the association’s web page www.nsba.com/hunter-jumper. NSBA also welcomes interested show managers to obtain NSBA approval for their hunter jumper events. Please contact NSBA at (847) 623-6722 for additional information.
/\ makes a very good case for dressage like score sheets in hunters. The score places the class.
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I agree. In figure skating the scores and comments are posted next to each competitor’s name. Everyone knows how you scored and why. Hunter score sheets used to be posted. I do not get the pushback of why this is so difficult. The judges sign their cards. I am not sure where they go or how they are stored. Do they go to some secret vault or trashed after a certain amount of time has passed?
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You need to go back and read my post. It is for all the reasons I list above that dressage score sheets cannot be used in hunters. I will say, I wish more shows would do open numerical scoring.
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I don’t think this development in any way solves the problem of accessibility due to financial reasons, but I don’t think anyone is claiming that it will. The cost of shows in the USA will always be high because the cost of the land, venue to hold the events, etc. There is no government subsidization like in many European countries.
I’m confused about you “wanting a say”? If you wanted to create an alternate organization and offer to sanction h/j shows, you could have done that, but despite lots of talk and complaining no one has ever actually done it. The Roberts have spent immense amounts of time and money on a top of the line facility and worked out a partnership with an established organization that is very experienced with large horse shows. The way that we “have a say” is to either attend their shows or not. I don’t have the budget or schedule to go to Florida for the winter anyway, but I have shown at WEC-Ohio several times and I have always been impressed.
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I have actually been a part of a grassroots launch endeavor. It is next to impossible as nobodies, but would have had a much better chance if a major show manager had been around as an anchor to build out from. I also know of another grassroots launch effort that did reach out to WEC Ocala, but never heard back…
Yes, costs in the US will always be high because of land, but throwing a multi-billion $ palace on top of that land is something else entirely. People we’re talking about “target audiences” in this thread as though WEC is trying to lure something other than the 6-figure horses already showing at WEF & HITS, and I just don’t think that’s the case.
I’m also not convinced WEC isn’t just using NSBA to put pressure on USEF, and if/once USEF caves that will be the end of NSBA in our lives. If that’s the case then no need to bother getting into the gears of NSBA and helping them build an HJ program from a performance perspective, instead of a pleasure perspective. But if they’re going to be The New Thing to rival USEF nationwide? Well then yeah, I am concerned about their depth of experience with performance horses (or lack thereof).
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