Welsh Cob People - Canter or wait?

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I have a coming 5yr old, barely a D, cob mare. She had 5 rides on her as a two year old, was off her 3yr old year to foal, had about 20 rides on her last winter, and then had the rest of the year off for me to “foal.” :lol: So we are just getting back to work. Some days she’s brilliant, others i want to strangle her… You all know how that goes… :winkgrin:

Anyway. My typical routine is to lunge her first, then add side reins to the mix, then ride her. She has to get the stupids out before she puts her brain in her head and decides to work. The side reins i add because she isnt super balanced yet, and they help.

Now walk/trot things are going ok, a little wobbly here and there, we are staying on BIG circles, big figure 8s, etc… Everything is big because of the balance. Just strictly working on tempo and stretching, which is hard for that higher set neck!

The canter on the lunge line is “starting” to come along. I have cantered her under saddle twice last winter… YEEHAW! She does nothing silly, its just crazy fast.

So my question, do i continue her with the side reins on the lunge line until this canter is super balanced before i try it under saddle again. Or do i go ahead and try and work on slowing it down and balancing her as much as i can from my end?

I’m kind of at a stand still with it, either i wait and still have to “fix” it under saddle, or go ahead and fix it as best i can. So for all those other welsh people with your crazy cantering cobs, or anyone else for that matter… What did you do? I just know a lot of cobs tend to have this issue as canter wasnt exactly what they were bred for, though when they figure it out, its FAB! And her’s is gorgeous when she settles into it while lunging… Its just that firecracker, looks like she hasnt had her V8 today thing thats nutso!

Thanks in advance! I cant get to lessons yet, so i’m on my own. Your advice is much appreciated!

[tempichange]

Both actually. The more that she canters the better.

Proper lunging will encourage the proper muscles to be developed especially in the warmup, but also going under saddle will develop the aids an carrying power. Multiple transitions with emphasis on straightness and coming back is above all the priority.

I had to deal with a “zoom” canter for about two years. It’s a great thing to have in the end because I never have to worry about keeping the jump in the canter. But straight and coming back were big turning points.

[exvet]

Honestly I’ve tried it both ways for those who have issues with balance at the canter (had a few welsh cobs). I prefer for them to find their balance on the lunge first but I’ve had one who simply did not tolerate lunging; so, I rode her for a while more or less helping her find her balance. We’re almost there but have now gone back to putting her on the lunge and you know what?..she now accepts lunging, the side reins and is becoming better in finding her own balance at a slow speed. Kind of backwards but it’s what’s working for her, possibly 'cause she was a CDE pony before ever being ridden (still thinks canter is for marathons only). For all my others, though, it was find the balance (well some semblance of it 'cause rider aboard does kind of put some back to square one) on the lunge first.

I’m thanking the powers that be that both my section C and my coming 3 year old section D (related to your mare) have a well balanced canter from the get go. Makes it so much easier. Having said that, it was my one who we thought would never figure out the canter (use to cross canter as a 5 year old) who’s showing Prix St. George in just 3 weeks. He found his balance on the lunge, actually likes to canter over trot but still had issues for while under saddle. Once he got it together, though, there was no looking back :winkgrin: Good luck.

[eqeq]

I may be in the minority here, but I always just let mine find their own balance in the canter. Truthfully, a few of the cobs I’ve started couldn’t even find a canter on the lunge line. If you can be brave (and feel safe enough at speed), I’d try just letting her canter around the ring on a soft rein until she finds the sweet spot. I’m with you that it can be a bit hair raising - even my perfect Cardi was a bit brisk to start. Still, I’ve found that trying to “balance”, ie contain it, prematurely created even more problems - lots of tension and even some irregularity. I wait until they can “lope” comfortably around the ring, adding large, swoopy turns, until it becomes a circle. Then add in some gentle spirals in and out. They practically put themselves on the bit at this point. Doing it this way has always produced a willing, quiet, three beat canter with good contact and suppleness.

[goeslikestink]

a welsh d is no dfferent from any other horse you are trianing
look here at helpful links page http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=178116

if it was me and you have ridden her then work the horse on a full size areana if youhave one
using the full lenght and width if not mark out a square with cones or typres 20x60 minium
then use the half halts stride and start it in walk 1st then move up to trot lenghtening and shorten your strides bu keep the ryythem then move up into canter and then couter canter
by lenghtening and shortening her she will learn to balance her self all work to begin with should be in walk and trot using the half halts in every transition once mastered move up into canter
and again use the half halt stride this informs the horse something going to change by a clear direct signal say from a faster pace to a more collected one and visa versa

[Thomas_1]

Now I do have welsh cobs… in number!

If it were me and mine then I wouldn’t be doing side reins or canter on the lunge line at all. No matter how big the circles were.

I’d be more inclined to have the horse out of the equipment and ridden full arena at least. Though in truth I don’t even normally do that with youngsters. Cantering in a circle with a rider is hard work for a young unbalanced horse. Though truth is out loose they’re often more balanced in canter than in trot and this is the pace they use most when turned out goofing about in the field or in the wild so I prefer to use that to my advantage. So what I tend to do when a youngster is unbalanced is take it out to a nice big open space and ask for a canter - often uphill too and with my weight such that I’m not interfering and making it have to do a couple of one legged bucks/kicks whilst it sorts out what it’s doing. It might spend a few paces in trot but if you get your weight light and forward - not too much though in case it does buck because you don’t want to fall off if he does that or stumbles. So just enough to help him balance.

Personally speaking, the approach being taken with lunging and circles and arena work is not one I’d ever recommend and from all too frequent sad experience.

I currently have one that was done with persistent lunging, side reins and transitions. Long long story but the quick version: He came here on his last chance having been an insurance loss of use write off - crippled with back pain! I bought him for meat money and it’s taken 2 years to get him so it’s not sh** scared of a saddle and being mounted. All from trying to push on and force the balance of a cob that has a lot of maturing and developing to do and in confines.

[Eireamon]

I have yet to back my Sec D but have some experience with larger cob types and canter issues.
I have Irish Hunters and all mine tend to be just like oversized Welsh Cobs.
I often find they have a bit of an issue getting started with canter and I always do their first canter on the trail.
I take them out with another horse and after a bit when we have had decent trot just get the lead horse to go off at a slow canter. I find the youngster will trot as fast as they can for a bit and then just break into a canter.
I find it a great way to get the canter established. Its really good if you can get a narrow trail so that the baby horse has to stay tucked in behind the lead horse too. They don’t feel as insecure as if its an open trail.

I have tried it on a couple in the arena and its never as sucessful. By the time you’ve got the momentum going the corner comes up.

Edited also to say that like one of the other posters I find alot of these horses find cantering on the lunge really hard and so I prefer to just let them find their own way under saddle.

[exvet]

I’m not surprised by the recommendations not to lunge. I do find it interesting though that some might take away from the suggestions here that perhaps welsh cobs in particular should not be lunged or can’t be lunged. Lunging can definitely be more of a detriment than a help if used incorrectly or if one allows a horse (welsh cob or other) to run around wildly at the end of a rope veering and yanking themselves and the grounds person all around. I also assume by the age of the OP’s welsh cob that this isn’t an issue of an animal still growing. If it were one of the bigger welsh cobs that hadn’t fully grown into himself/herself I would suggest waiting before really focusing on cantering. Of course I say this with the warning that admittedly I do not have the vast experience or credentials as some of the others posting here. The following is simply what works for me and mine (which includes youngstock and those given to me because they were considered unrideable).

I typically only use the lunge as a tool/aid in the beginning when I’m starting to work/train a youngster or remount project. Personally I do not lunge more than a couple times of week (10 - 15 minutes at a time tops) and often I find that with most their lunging/training does not go on for weeks on end. I get them going in all three paces on the lunge to see what they are capable of and where their balance issues are (what side they are more stiff on, etc). I then move on to long lining before I back them. I do not have a lot of time so I do not use the lunge to warm-up first or the such. The majority of my welsh cobs get introduced to miles and miles of trail riding before being worked/schooled in the arena. Unfortunately, here in the sonora desert cantering out in the open is not really feasible (too rocky, rattlesnakes abound, etc) so cantering under saddle in the arena is a necessity at some point. I do not, however, ask for the canter without having worked with their canter on the ground simply because I have had some of the larger cobs who do panic, have no idea where to put their feet, etc and feel that doing so without weight on their back at least helps me decide not only how and when we’re going to ask for it under saddle but what to expect their response to be. Like some others here I will not try to put them in any kind of frame or hold them back but I have some who do require some boundaries set so that they won’t injure themselves.

I also tend not to use side reins except for the one welsh cob who has competed at CDE’s and is now being used strictly for riding. She was ridden and “allowed” to find her balance for over a year now and is still having some trouble (comes and goes). Her issue is she needs to learn how to stretch over her back and slow down. I can get moments under saddle but being a mare she also can get very agitated (not dangerous in any way) and exhausts herself mentally. I decided to lunge her in side reins and it appears to be working - only 2-3 times a week, working on our second week - and will go back to asking for canter under saddle soon.

As a vet, I’m painfully aware of how misuse of lunging can injure or cause lameness. I also do not advocate lunging ad nauseum. I’m much more the get on and ride it type, not interfering and letting them figure it out but I think lunging can aid in preventing the “panic” aspect for some especially when one does not have a field or area they can just go out and canter in. As I said trail riding is huge for my training and actually my conditioning program but cantering on our mountainous trails is not wise :winkgrin:

Interesting, though, is over the years I have had more [welsh cobs] who do not go through this issue with the canter…(and I’m talking about the cross firing, almost bolting, crow hopping 'cause they can’t figure out what the back half vs. front half is doing) …perhaps I’m just luckier now or I’m praying that I’m doing a better job finding those who are born with the innate balance and canter for dressage. They do exist but in the end I guess time will tell.

Good luck to the OP with whatever training method you elect to follow and post more pics when you can. Love to see the welsh cobs in action.

[tempichange]

[QUOTE=exvet;3832417]

Interesting, though, is over the years I have had more [welsh cobs] who do not go through this issue with the canter…(and I’m talking about the cross firing, almost bolting, crow hopping 'cause they can’t figure out what the back half vs. front half is doing) …perhaps I’m just luckier now or I’m praying that I’m doing a better job finding those who are born with the innate balance and canter for dressage. They do exist but in the end I guess time will tell.

Good luck to the OP with whatever training method you elect to follow and post more pics when you can. Love to see the welsh cobs in action.[/QUOTE]

I never realised that they had “canter issues” until someone complemented my mare on her lovely canter despite being a Welsh Cob.

Do post photos, would love to see what other cobs are doing.

[Tamara_in_TN]

@tempichange;3832570

I never realised that they had “canter issues” until someone complemented my mare on her lovely canter despite being a Welsh Cob.

Do post photos, would love to see what other cobs are doing.

I don’t think that it is “issues” just so much as some Cobs just trot better than they canter…and you have to see it in them as babies which they prefer to do…even in close siblings you just have to keep an eye out for them to see which gait they prefer naturally… a big ole break over level trot is not all ways conducive to a big nice canter

best

[goeslikestink]

i am also like thomas 1 i like to take the horses out once they are broken into ride as i i havent got an indoor or out door but can use the one up the road if need be
so all my work is done in an open field, then once they get the gist iam off out as soon as i can so the horse can see and learn the outdoor life and i often find tha it helps the horse in a more relaxed atmostsphere as you can do basic stuff down a quiet lane or road or on by way or track as in si and leg yeilds half halts etc etc

but as most on here have schools etc and tend to work inside rather than out its better to be done in a full size areana id ont do cirles or lunge a young horse thats unbalanced as it can put extra strains on undelveoped ,mussles and legs

[jcotton]

I ground drove and lunge my cobs (any young horse of mine) to start.
I am fortunate to have a round pen to use. And lunge mine with vienna side reins to establish stretch & balance in all gaits before getting on my youngsters.
Right now my now 4 yr old Holst cross is having a loss of canter, when ridden, because his balance in trot when I ride is interesting at times, but he can canter on the lunge with vienna side reins or rubber doughnut side reins.
To the OP, don’t worry about the hurriedness or explosiveness of the canter, it will balance out later. Both my cobs launched themselves into canter at first. You will need that explosiveness later for canter lengthenings.

[exvet]

You will need that explosiveness later for canter lengthenings.

Good point It does come in handy doesn’t it :yes:

[butlerfamilyzoo]

Great ideas/info from all!

My lunging lasts around 5-10min. I let her blow off steam both ways for a few laps, then hook up the side reins. She stays out at the VERY end of the line, and when i canter her, i walk a circle myself to let her circle be bigger. I’m lucky to get time to work her 2 or 3 times a week right now until the days start getting longer. Not enough to do squat, i know! Its frustrating.

I have a wonderful piece of property that is very inviting to take off in a nice canter/gallop… Hole free, flat, 7acres in the front where i ride… So having a good spot to let her go and find herself is available… BUT, i had a miserable pregnancy and didnt ride from March - Dec… “I” do not feel comfortable just yet in letting her go. I’ve come back braver than i have been in years, mentally i dont mind, but seat wise, i dont think i’m really ready for it, if she were to be silly at all, i might just plop off the side!

I have an older horse i’m trying to get myself “back together” on, but he’s a jumper/x-eventer. His canters are also a bit hair raising and another issue altogether that i have been getting advice from the jumper people to get some insight on how the heck he was trained… Slowly but surely, i am getting my seat together, but with 2-3 rides a week, i’m not sure how long its going to take me to feel really comfortable to let my mare go in an open space.

My arena is not fenced in, so technically, it could quickly become an open space that we jet off in as well! But she semi knows the drill that arena work is done in the arena.

I do not have a truck right now to take her trail riding, and no one to ride with, i dont know anyone experienced enough i could put on my older guy to take him along, and i’m afraid he would not limit his canter to a nice slow lope down the trail… More like "WHERES THE NEXT FENCE? i know its coming, i must go faster to find it… "

I think i’ll stick with my present routine for another couple weeks for my seat to get more stable and then hopefully, try the canter in the “arena”. If that doesnt go over, we’ll leave it and try out in the open.

I really want to get some video and have everyone critique us, second best to not being able to get to lessons… But i’m usually out on my own and no one here to video for me. My husband is typically inside with the baby. Maybe the next warmer nice day i can get him out there to video.

My mare did do a bit of growing this past year, but “i” feel she’s pretty much done now. She more so just filled out a bit more. I’m not really worried about ruining her by lunging, she’s not lunged long enough or hard enough for it to be detrimental, unless while she’s letting the stupids out she does something stupid… I would rather let her do that however, then ride out the bucks she likes to throw in if i dont lunge her! Until she can prove to me that she can behave, she’ll have to continue with her few minutes of stupids on the lunge line. I’m sure she will improve when we can put in a solid 5-6 days of riding a week. Until then, i’m fighting an uphill battle!

Oh, and she is the type of cob that trots. It is more on the rare side to see her cantering around the pasture, not to say that she doesnt at least once a day… But mostly its the tail up in the air, head up, snort and prance off like an arab deal… She has a FANTASTIC trot… But even out in the field, her canter looks unbalanced and rushed. She doesnt know what to do with it. On the lunge line in side reins though, it does have really pretty moments for a couple strides at a time. It may take us a long time to figure it out, but she does have a nice “jumpy” canter when things all move the way they are supposed to. Maybe not Cardi good… But nicer than most out there. And hands down, her trot will get good scores. That is, if we ever master the canter enough to go to a show!

Thank you everyone for your ideas! I’m going to bookmark this and study up on your thoughts!

[eqeq]

Keep us posted!!!

[purplnurpl]

I am training my first pony and he just happens to be a Cob [4 year old]. : ) He’s just at 14h now, (I’m 6’ and 160lbs!)

I never had pony experience before and was coming in after the pony had been backed by a cowboy and then a ‘dressage rider’ had cranked him up for 10 rides or so.

So the first thing I did was teach him to wait wait wait for me and not fred flinstone trot off and bounce me to death. His trot is FANTASTIC now and he does some leg yield, counter bending, and a lil shoulder fore. He was stiff as a board so I worked on making his body bendable first.

As for canter. OMG. Well he canters on the lunge now, OK. I take him out on the trail and let him hand lope a little. It’s easier on him and he tends to go with a slower step. His left lead isn’t so bad but our physics just don’t match so well yet and he’s so butt high that I have no choice but to be in two point…but them my chin is by his ears. It’s rather funny actually.

My biggest issue is that my hands get tangled in his mane (hangs down to his shoulder) and when I wiggle them free it spooks him!!!

Here he is as a 3 year old.
(no, he’s not for sale)
http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=1323183

The first thing I did was teach the boy to reach and stretch. He looks like a little Grand Prix Pony Conf wise now. And his neck reaches down wonderfully for the bit.
He’s one of my favs to ride for sure.

[Hony]

My half Cob’s canter was never really balanced until she learned collected canter. Now she has a fantastic canter and a much better trot. The biggest issue I have found is that Cobs prefer to go around with a short neck. It’s almost like they use the shortening of the neck for balance. I am constantly doing stretching excersizes to improve my Hony’s way of going.
I really like using the pessoa set on the lowest setting if I’m going to lunge. I find all the stretching results in a much more rhythmical and supple gait.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

Hony- I wondered how the Pessoa system would work on her. I’ve seen it used on other horses, but never used one myself. I set her side reins fairly low too, and she’s on the longest hole of the pony size ones. I too have found the lower i can make her come down, the better she seems to stretch out and work better by the end. I agree, my girl also tends to get the head up to balance. But i also think that is something to do with most shorter/higher necked horses, especially ones bred for trot. Think Freisian. I’ve been on a few of them that are worse than my mare! Sure, there are exceptions! But i think the trotting breeds have a harder time with stretching, its just the way they are built, everything is built to come up in the front end, not out and down… But once you get it all together, boy are they something else!

[Hony]

If you aren’t familiar with it then I would get someone who is to set it up for you the first time. The lowest setting goes down between their front legs. You can see it at the pessoa website. I like it because I can see what’s going on.
Your Cob is quite young so don’t be suprised if one day she can canter really well and then the next day can’t. It takes time to develop the muscles and timing. As I said, the collected canter was what really improved my horse’s canter but you won’t want to start that for quite a while. When your horse is ready for it I would suggest walk, canter, walk, canter transitions on a circle.