Western Dressage confusion! UPDATED!

[Kyzteke]

Afew points on “real dressage” (sorry, but that’s how I see it).

You are not allowed to ride in a double bridle until PSG, which is the 6th level (not counting Intro, which only started afew years ago…again, a class developed to lure people who can’t ride that well but like to show). You MUST use a snaffle.

You are not REQUIRED to use a double bridle (both a curb and a small, thin snaffle – brigdoon (sp?) with reins to each bit) till I-1 I believe. And good riders can easily do all the upper level movements in a snaffle…in fact there are plenty of people who believe that using a snaffle should be allowed through-out the levels. In fact, the woman who won the Gold medal in the London Olympics gave a demo ride where she did all the GP movements using a snaffle.

In general, even today when you have a type of horse who was bred for the discipline, a horse who has reached Grand Prix (the top level) by age 7-8 is considered quite precocious. It’s more likely to see a “young” GP horse who is 10-12 yrs old.

As for scores in the 70’s-80’s on a regular basis? Doesn’t happen unless you are talking the upper echelon of riders internationally.

Most ammie dressage riders of ANY level are happy if they break 60. You can go to Centerline Scores, which is a website that has the scores of all riders/horses in the USA who have shown in USDF-recognized shows. Shows the scores at various levels.

Personally, I think if they REALLY wanted to have “Western Dressage”, they would just base it on the training scale used to make a bridle horse, with the same sort of maneuvers/head gear required at each “level.”

But they won’t do that, because that actually takes time & skill, something much of the ammie horse world is reluctant to put in. So they will invent some mish-mash of nonsense so every body get “show” NOW.

Granted, it’s a new class, but from what I’ve seen so far of the riders/classes…it’s kind of a joke…it denigrates both classical dressage AND traditional western horsemanship.

Personally, I would prefer they keep it at the western shows, rather than put it in regular dressage shows, but I’m guessing that here in America, where western riding is more popular, USDF will eventually cave just to support their shows and make $$$.

[Pocket_Pony]

@Kyzteke;7280746

Afew points on “real dressage” (sorry, but that’s how I see it).

You are not allowed to ride in a double bridle until PSG, which is the 6th level (not counting Intro, which only started afew years ago…again, a class developed to lure people who can’t ride that well but like to show). You MUST use a snaffle.

A double bridle is allowed at 3rd level.

Also, wrt Intro, it didn’t lure me because I can’t ride for shit yet like to show. I (and many other people whom I know who are decent riders who in levels above Intro score into the high 60s) used Intro as, well, an intro for my horse into what showing is all about . . . getting into the ring, leaving the warm-up area, riding the test in front of a judge, focusing with hoopla around, etc. Sure I could do that at Training level, but for me Intro just takes the pressure off.

[mvp]

Great post, krysteke, the whole thing. Thank you.

On this part

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7280746]

Personally, I think if they REALLY wanted to have “Western Dressage”, they would just base it on the training scale used to make a bridle horse, with the same sort of maneuvers/head gear required at each “level.”

But they won’t do that, because that actually takes time & skill, something much of the ammie horse world is reluctant to put in. So they will invent some mish-mash of nonsense so every body get “show” NOW.

Granted, it’s a new class, but from what I’ve seen so far of the riders/classes…it’s kind of a joke…it denigrates both classical dressage AND traditional western horsemanship.

Personally, I would prefer they keep it at the western shows, rather than put it in regular dressage shows, but I’m guessing that here in America, where western riding is more popular, USDF will eventually cave just to support their shows and make $$$.[/QUOTE]

I’d like a training scale or levels base on the making of the bridle horse to inform WD’s progression, too. At least I’d be basing my training and showing on something very, very worthwhile in the end.

Some WD folks— not liking the kludgy, inclusive “sure, ride in your leverage bit two-handed” crap-- have written about Dressage’s Training Scale for the WD crowd. I’d say that’s better than nothing, but it does cause some of us who come from English or DressageWorld to wonder if we should just make lower level dressage horses that go in snaffles and western saddles.

I have written many threads about this. I do want to know how bridle horse people make up their horses. If there’s another way to get a horse to happily carry himself on his hind end, I want to know what that is.

So, yeah, I want exactly what you are recommending and to date, I can’t find it.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7280970]
A double bridle is allowed at 3rd level.

Also, wrt Intro, it didn’t lure me because I can’t ride for shit yet like to show. I (and many other people whom I know who are decent riders who in levels above Intro score into the high 60s) used Intro as, well, an intro for my horse into what showing is all about . . . getting into the ring, leaving the warm-up area, riding the test in front of a judge, focusing with hoopla around, etc. Sure I could do that at Training level, but for me Intro just takes the pressure off.[/QUOTE]

I’ve heard that before, but that makes no sense. Why is there “more” pressure at Training Level than Intro?

Intro is a very, very recent addition to the USDF classes and (I may be wrong on this) but I’m pretty sure they don’t even have an “Intro” over in Europe.

Yet they seem to be able to bring their greenies along just fine; they certainly kick our butts on a fairly regular basis.

So…why do Americans need this level? What’s wrong with just plain old schooling shows? No, I suspect Intro classes were NOT created for green horses…

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=mvp;7280993]

I have written many threads about this. I do want to know how bridle horse people make up their horses. If there’s another way to get a horse to happily carry himself on his hind end, I want to know what that is.

So, yeah, I want exactly what you are recommending and to date, I can’t find it.[/QUOTE]

I think you will have trouble finding this outside the rare “Californio” ranch classes simply because it’s almost a lost art.

If they REALLY wanted to show what “western/cowboy” dressage is all about, this is it.

I really don’t think this “sport” is being promoted as a way to improve western horsemanship, although perhaps people like Jack Brainard originally had that in mind.

Nope, in the typical American “I-Want-It-Fast-Now-Without-Much-Hard-Work” style, they are going to dumb it down to fill classes and make $$$.

Too bad, but I would LOVE to see actual classes for bridle horses. Watching a made bridle horse work is a real treat.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7281096]
I’ve heard that before, but that makes no sense. Why is there “more” pressure at Training Level than Intro?

Intro is a very, very recent addition to the USDF classes and (I may be wrong on this) but I’m pretty sure they don’t even have an “Intro” over in Europe.

Yet they seem to be able to bring their greenies along just fine; they certainly kick our butts on a fairly regular basis.

So…why do Americans need this level? What’s wrong with just plain old schooling shows? No, I suspect Intro classes were NOT created for green horses…[/QUOTE]

I don’t care if they have Intro in Europe or not. I’m not competing against Europeans, and I’m certainly not going to do the Big Tour or the Small Tour any day. What they do is irrelevant to me.

The pressure is self-created. Sure, Training level isn’t too difficult, either, but I put pressure on myself to at least try to be competitive (and I create the same pressure for myself at a schooling show as a rated show - I don’t let myself slack just because one is “schooling”) at Training level, whereas at Intro I don’t really care if my horse jumps around or we make mistakes. I still try hard and still ride my best, but I care less about mistakes because it IS just Intro. I mean, does anyone chase points at Intro? I guess someone might but to me it is a “throwaway” class. Kind of like my friends who used the Modified AA classes in h/j land as a warmup class that they didn’t really care about. A chance to get the kinks out, get some practice at a new location, or whatever.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7281469]

The pressure is self-created. [/QUOTE]

Any schooling show will supply the same stuff for the horse as Intro does.

It wasn’t created for the horse…if was created for people who want to show but don’t even want to put the sweat in to do Training Level. It’s a money-maker for USDF, pure & simple.

Lots of people never do more than Intro, because then they never have to canter…

As for green horses…well, somehow for all these years they managed to get seasoned without Intro Classes…I wonder how?:rolleyes:

Schooling shows? Yep, that’s it. That’s what they are for…

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7281130]
…to fill classes and make $$$.[/QUOTE]

You say that like it’s a bad thing. Everything report I’ve seen in recent years says horse ownership is declining, as is horse show attendance. If, in order to keep competitions economically viable, you have to expand the pool of potential participants by adding lower level classes like Intro, then we should be grateful that 1. shows are willing to do so and 2. people are willing to show up and show in them.

I also believe the demographics of the horse owning population is changing, with more older riders and fewer younger riders. Us little old ladies often have very different goals than younger folks. I know I’ve got very different goals than I did when I was younger. I’m also a bigger sissy now than I was when I was younger, mostly because I know just how easily I can be seriously broken. So, if I’m more comfortable re-starting my showing career in Intro dressage or in the “Chicken Little Jumpers” (a real class on the local winter H/J circuit), what’s the harm?

[Kyzteke]

@NoSuchPerson;7282278

You say that like it’s a bad thing. Everything report I’ve seen in recent years says horse ownership is declining, as is horse show attendance. If, in order to keep competitions economically viable, you have to expand the pool of potential participants by adding lower level classes like Intro, then we should be grateful that 1. shows are willing to do so and 2. people are willing to show up and show in them.

I understand that riding clubs/organizations need to make $$.

I had 2 of my horses in 4 classes each this last summer (in-hand) and with all the costs totaled I dropped about $850 in one day!

Yeah, I got these cool, fancy ribbons (one of my mares won the Championship), but they were pretty darn spendy pieces of…whatever.

Still, I “get” that showing is a hobby like any other and many people really enjoy it.

I have zero problem with that aspect.

My issue is making these “competitions” that aren’t really that at all. They take no serious degree of horsemanship and in the case of this topic, basically making up a “discipline” to fit the population; dumbing down the class(es) to the point that it is SO easy a bunch of people will enter.

You know, at this show, I won the Breeder Class and therefore the Breeder Championship. So I could brag on and on about how hot I am (or rather, my horses are), but the fact is there were only 2 other entries in the class and neither of them were that great.

So it’s not like I beat HillTop Farms or something. I beat a couple of kids with 3 week old foals and somebody with some (obviously) subpar stock. There wasn’t any glory or even much satisfaction in that…at least to me.

However one of my mares took the her class AND the Mare Championship against a highly decorated, older mare…and THAT was cool. In that case I felt like I’d really won something of value. But the breeding class? I was embarrassed to even mention it.

You know, I’m older as well, but rather than pay all that $$ to show in “Intro” why not spend another few months in training and start at Training Level (or even higher). What is the rush to show? Are you riding to get better or riding to show? There IS a difference, as I’m sure you know.

And getting a 70% in a walk/trot class is certainly no big accomplishment. Nor is slapping a curb on a already trained western horse so you can ride w/two hands.

Personally, I’m of the opinion that all the $$ people spend showing Intro and/or WD could be better spent (IMHO) in actual lessons and training…

I guess that’s my point. It doesn’t improve horsemanship to lower the bar, and that’s what I see happening.

Granted, Western Dressage and Intro dressage classes certainly aren’t going to make the world fall apart, and there are certainly far more pressing things to worry about, but I just don’t see any challenge in it OR accomplishment in them…

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7282342]
And getting a 70% in a walk/trot class is certainly no big accomplishment.[/Quote]

But maybe it is to someone else.

@Kyzteke;7282342

Personally, I’m of the opinion that all the $$ people spend showing Intro and/or WD could be better spent (IMHO) in actual lessons and training…

How do you know they aren’t? At many boarding/lesson/training barns, there is a culture of showing. Not instead of lessons and training but in addition to lessons and training.

@Kyzteke;7282342

I guess that’s my point. It doesn’t improve horsemanship to lower the bar, and that’s what I see happening.

I don’t see that at all. Intro dressage or walk-trot pleasure or cross-rails jumpers are just the first step in a progression. For example, I know an older rider who just went to a show (first one in decades) with her new horse. They entered a walk-trot division and did fine. At the end of the day, she said, “We did it. We did OK. I didn’t fall off. I had fun. Next time, we’re moving up to the next division.”

I’m curious. Do you also oppose walk-trot classes on the theory that people ought to just wait until they learn to canter before they go to a show? Do you think lead-line classes are a waste because those kids just shouldn’t be showing until they can steer their own pony? Cross-rail jumpers because people shouldn’t show jumpers until they learn to jump a “real” fence?

I just don’t get all this hate for low level showing or for western dressage. I don’t see any reason to be opposed to anything that encourages people to be more involved with horses. There are many benefits and I don’t see any real down side.

[mvp]

I’ll bite… and I do support Western Dressage

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7284515]
Do you also oppose walk-trot classes on the theory that people ought to just wait until they learn to canter before they go to a show? Do you think lead-line classes are a waste because those kids just shouldn’t be showing until they can steer their own pony? Cross-rail jumpers because people shouldn’t show jumpers until they learn to jump a “real” fence?[/QUOTE]
In answer to your questions:

Yes. People shouldn’t show until they can WTC. I don’t think asking for that level of control/competence is too much. I really don’t think it’s too much since the show atmosphere makes most horses harder to ride. If you aren’t required to have the skill it takes to canter, how do you think an amped up horse there to just to W-T is going to go?

I don’t think its mean or irrational to expect folks to stay home and develop skills before they go out showing.

No, but I don’t watch 'em or care one way or another. At least there’s an adult there making sure the pony ride is safe.

Yes. The worst wrecks I have seen in schooling rings happen when riders of varying skills work together. There are folks jumping the little stuff who can’t steer or stop. WTF?

On the WD front: Making a discipline that’s inclusive At All Costs isn’t interesting to me. So I’m opposed to the “Hey, ride in your shank bit two-handed if you want to” approach. But there are so many people and horses who would benefit from a discipline that gave them the incentive to train a horse to use himself correctly. That’s a good reason to be inclusive to a degree.

[NoSuchPerson]

LOL, I guess it’s time for me to drop out of this discussion, then, because clearly we don’t share much common ground.

I do have to comment, though, on the statements that people shouldn’t show until they can WTC and that “If you aren’t required to have the skill it takes to canter, how do you think an amped up horse there to just to W-T is going to go?” I don’t know what kind of shows you’re going to, but the W/T classes at the shows I go to a populated by beginners on been-there-done-that horses that know their jobs. No amped up horses, no bucking, no spooking.

[gaitedincali]

@mvp;7284593

Yes. People shouldn’t show until they can WTC. I don’t think asking for that level of control/competence is too much. I really don’t think it’s too much since the show atmosphere makes most horses harder to ride. If you aren’t required to have the skill it takes to canter, how do you think an amped up horse there to just to W-T is going to go?

Someone should let the breed circuits all know the big w/t classes they’re have since forever ago are really a secret disaster waiting to happen. Since the horses get so amped up and all and no one is smart enough to pick calm, experienced horses that don’t get amped up and/or lunge/warm them up properly.

[longride1]

Western Dressage IS offering a scale of training that goes to the level of the made bridle horse and a top bridle horse should be very successful there. Next year 3rd level tests will be added. The issues of two hands on the curb is controversial, which means that there are top level western trainers who use the technique and feel it is beneficial. I feel the use of the snaffle or bosal at the lower levels will soon become standard. There is no requirement to use the curb at any particular age of the horse and when showing using it magnifies any balance problems the horse has. Getting this across to that segment of the western trainers conditioned that a “broke” horse has to be in a curb to be “western” is a matter of education.

[schrkr]

I have competed both western dressage through 1st level (67%) and Dressage through 1st level (schooling 2nd). Western Dressage is GREAT - give it a try!

I found western dressage to be just a minor adjustment here and there from Dressage. My horse actually liked the slightly slower gaits of the western dressage and had a great time. We schooled for about a month - developed a nice jog trot and got rewarded with 7s for our gait score.

I also happen to be in the environment of adult beginner riders and green horses. My experience is that Intro classes are AWESOME for the above type of horses and riders. The way I see it there are multiple reasons why Intro classes are great.

First - I have seen A LOT of adult riders take extra time to feel comfortable at the canter - people learn at different speeds - what’s wrong with them wanting feedback from a judge on how they are progressing thus far? Riding rail classes you don’t get as much detailed feedback.

Some people are going to show regardless of if they are ready to or not - why not have a class where they can get their feet wet and potentially not show outside their limits. I would rather see a nicely ridden walk/trot test than add the canter and watch it go sideways - rider jerking on horse and flopping in saddle.

I’ve always been of the opinion - if you can’t do it at a walk - you shouldn’t do it faster - the idea being that speed makes it harder. My personal experience has been that horses seem to bolt and become more amped up the faster the pace. Plus SO MANY horses amp up away from home. So - you take an inexperienced horse to a show - you don’t know how it will do until you go down the centerline (sure you can get an idea by hauling to shows and riding in warmup arenas but until you go down the centerline - you really don’t know). Your horse is amped up and you are able to get the test done but it isn’t pretty - good thing you didn’t have to canter - your horse would have been in the rafters. Now you have a game plan that didn’t involve pushing him so far he had a bad experience.

If we go by the Dressage thought that it takes a year per level and technically we are supposed to show 1 level below where we are schooling - it would take 1-2 years of the horse being undersaddle before we ever showed it in a dressage show. Something I doubt many people would follow.

There was concern raised about wanting people to know how to ride w/t/c before they show. How many times have you seen people with means purchase a horse that has been trained up the levels but they themselves have no idea how to ride? The point being - first you are going to have people that don’t follow the same riding guidelines you follow and chaos may happen in the warmup arena- gonna happen get over it. Second would you rather have someone be uncontrolled at a trot or uncontrolled at a medium/extended canter?

I would rather people take their time and show at the level they are comfortable. It means less stress on them which can lead to a happier horse. After all dressage is supposed to be about the training process - not everyone is going to make it to Grand Prix - what’s wrong with enjoying the process even at the Intro level? So what if they are showing at Intro - we all started somewhere. If you don’t like it then don’t show in it, but by treating those who are showing in it as second class dressage riders - you are effectively giving people a reason to think we are an elitist, unwelcoming society that they thought we were.

Just my opinion

[Pocket_Pony]

schrkr, excellent post.

I guess I don’t see offering an Intro Dressage test as being offensive to me. It doesn’t negatively affect me and my progression with my horse, and if it is helpful to another rider then I’m all for it. At least in the Intro classes I’ve seen, there are plenty of good and relatively accomplished riders who use that class - even pros! I’ve used it for one horse and not another. So what? I didn’t “dumb down” my own level of horsemanship by entering a W/T class. My ego isn’t such that I feel like I should ride at a certain level - I ride at the level where my horse is comfortable and where I can do things that give him confidence. I don’t see how that is bad horsemanship.

What about people who buy horses who are too much for them and then look like they are waterskiing on the horse’s mouth as he drags them around Second level? Or who only get on to ride the class after the trainer has done all the warmup? Or who can’t ride Dobbin without lunging first? Are they absolved from bad horsemanship because they are at Second?

I am actually at a point where I’m not showing but we are schooling First/Second stuff at home. At this point there is no need for this horse to go back to an Intro class. It was useful when we needed it but we don’t need it anymore.

With regard to Western Dressage - well, honestly, I’ve never even seen one of those classes, so I can’t comment. I do think that there should be a bit (or bosal) progression in the rules so that there is some element of the training scale involved and a horse in the curb should be at a higher level than one in a snaffle (in that the rider demonstrates skill and proper use of all the aids that go along with riding a horse in the bridle).

[Plumcreek]

[QUOTE=JumpQH;6606105]
UPDATE: I have talked to several dressage trainers (I have yet to find anyone who does dressage in a Western saddle) and am going to start taking lessons. The trainer I chose stated that dressage is dressage in any tack - I liked that! I was trying to decide between Ranch Horse Pleasure, which I could show in the frequent AQHA shows out here, or Western Dressage, which is non-existent, and discovered that when it came down to it, I REALLY wanted the Western Dressage. I’m excited to start lessons! I’m also hoping that by the time I’d be ready to show, WD will have hit the West Coast and be available at shows![/QUOTE]

After watching ~ 40 rounds of Open Ranch Pleasure at the AQHA World Show prelims, I would say that you can school and show Western Dressage and still show Ranch Pleasure when it is offered close by. Dressage is Dressage, no matter what saddle you ride. The Ranch Pleasure, as it is evolving, is getting pretty close

[Sunny74]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biZei-ieLH4

[SanJacMonument]

[QUOTE=Sunny74;7337916]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biZei-ieLH4[/QUOTE]

Nice video!