WFFS

[Edre]

@LaurieB

I was made aware of this thread because @Elles posted a link to it in the Racing Forum and asked for a response from TB breeders. This is a repost of what I said there:

LaurieB, thank you for sharing your insight! I live near enough to Arlington racetrack that our thoroughbred population (off-the-track second careers, racehorses, and breeders) is relatively substantive, though absolutely nothing like Kentucky. In all the people I have spoken with about WFFS, no one had been aware of it either.

One of the main things that is now beginning to get looked at more comprehensively is the idea that most WFFS+/+ pregnancies don’t come to term - they are either reabsorbed or miscarried during the pregnancy. This is supported by the numbers that the Westfalen Verband released in their preliminary research on live-foal statistics of carrier vs non carrier stallions (though of course much more expansive research is necessary). So the number of foals who are actually carried to term and foaled out who then display such distressing symptoms are less than statistical projection suggests should occur based on incidence rating of a +/+ pregnancy.

WFFS was briefly in the public eye several years ago but it “blew over” as many of the industry leaders for warmblood breeding weren’t interested in hearing about it. Even in the past year, it has been attempted to be depicted as “american hysteria” (even recently this has continued to be an issue - no less than Kathy St. Martin, of Avalon Equine and Equine Reproduction has been attacked for this - I’ve attached the most recent incident of it here).

There is a WFFS group on facebook and several people have found thoroughbred carriers. To date I don’t believe that I am aware of what those pedigrees are. UC Davis also includes a statement that they have identified thoroughbred carriers.

Based on the lack of awareness I have seen in thoroughbred owners, I would be very curious to see if the incidence of the thoroughbred carrier changes with a more meaningful sample size being tested. How do you think someone can best approach this to try to introduce awareness, a willingness to test, and report findings, in the thoroughbred industry?

[Elles]

Thank you for your insight LaurieB! If I remember well about 15% of Hanoverian horses are WFFS carriers. Within Hanoverians a lot of Bay Ronald linebreeding can be found.
I looked up a Knabstrupper pedigree (7% carriers) and it also had Bay Ronald around 8 times in it’s pedigree. I do not know if that particular is a carrier.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@Southern Belle

I am speechless but not surprised at their reply. I just spoke with them as well and they told me that someone has to apply for a grant for a project and they vote on whether the project meets their criteria for research funding and they vote on whether or not to fund it. They said that they do not do research themselves. So if no one is submitting a proposal for researching WFFS in tb’s they aren’t looking for it themselves.

I don’t understand why you are speechless.

Their web site clearly states their aim is to support research at existing institutions through funding rather than carry out the research itself. Their response is clearly in line with their stated mission. Someone from a university would want to research FFS and apply for a grant.

The list of current research I thought quite interesting with more than one focusing on racehorse bones and legs.

[Elles]

In Bay Ronald could it have come from here (if he really is the culprit):
https://www.pedigreequery.com/amazon
Through Egremont’s Driver / Compton Barb (Sedley Arabian)? All other horses / dam lines in the more recent generations of Bay Ronald can be found in such abundance throughout the Thoroughbred population. Egremont’s Driver seems a bit more rare. However:
http://www.bloodlines.net/TB/Summaries/Orientals.htm
Sedley Arabian
[Compton Barb] gr c 1760c. The General Stud Book notes that “The COMPTON BARB, more commonly called the Sedley Arabian, was the sire of Coquette, Greyling, etc [GSB 1:393]”. He was first owned by Henry Compton of Hampshire, a member of the Jockey Club and a “gentleman-jockey” who attained success at Newmarket. He was later owned by Sir Charles Sedley (1721-1778), 2nd bt, and sometime owner of the famous horse Trentham (b c 1766 Sweepstakes), who maintained a bloodstock stable from around 1735 onwards. His principal seat was at Nuttall Temple in Nottinghamshire and he represented Nottingham in parliament for several years. The horse covered at Bisterne in Hampshire, and later at Nuttall Temple for a fee of 3 guineas that rose to 5 guineas. He is credited with about twenty offspring in the stud book. His daughters are responsible for his heritage with the most significant probably being Coquette (b f 1765) a superb racemare and the ancestress of most of Family 11, Sister to Greyling (gr f 1769) the ancestress of most of Family 29, and an unnamed mare who became the 2nd dam of Lurcher (b c 1789 Dungannon).

http://www.idshs.com.au/perl/search…on_barb&gens=5

It seems impossible to find an ancestor in Bay Ronald’s more recent generations that did not have a big influence on the Thoroughbred population or without parents that had a big influence within the TB breed through quite a number of different offspring…

[EventerAJ]

@Texarkana

Re: Skepticism from the Jockey Club

There are around 100,000 thoroughbreds born worldwide each year. I don’t know how many foals warmblood registries produce worldwide, but I can’t imagine it even comes close. Thoroughbreds are a multi-billion dollar industry.

Northern Dancer is the most prevalent modern stallion across the globe. He has 2(?) crosses to Bay Ronald. Just that fact alone makes it safe to assume that basically every thoroughbred on the planet has Bay Ronald lines.

No one, to my knowledge, has come forward with a thoroughbred foal displaying symptoms of WFFS. That’s what it took for WB registries to get on board with acknowledging the allele.

There is no evidence that incidences of pregnancy loss are directly related to this.

So I understand why they would toe the line and separate themselves from this frenzy until they have more evidence of its impact.

Agreed. Kentucky TB industry would be all over this if it was a problem; see MRLS back in 2000s. If mares were aborting or having afflicted foals for a discernable cause, the economics would dictate concern and appropriate course of action.

There is some occurrence of early embrionic loss, but again, if it was related to a particular stallion or mare (pedigree) out would be noticed very quickly.

[LaurieB]

@Edre

Based on the lack of awareness I have seen in thoroughbred owners, I would be very curious to see if the incidence of the thoroughbred carrier changes with a more meaningful sample size being tested. How do you think someone can best approach this to try to introduce awareness, a willingness to test, and report findings, in the thoroughbred industry?

You would be asking thousands of people to spend time and money looking for a problem they’ve never previously heard of, and which has not yet ever effected them. Frankly, that sounds like a hard sell to me no matter how you approach it.

If/when FFS begins to show up in the TB population, breeders will respond immediately. I think that’s probably the best you can hope for.

Fwiw, Northern Dancer (cited above) appears in more modern TB pedigrees–often multiple times–than any other TB stallion in history. If he was a carrier for FFS, it seems certain that we would already know.

[Laurierace]

One thing you never hear about with TBs is EVA. I often wondered why they don’t publish a TBs EVA status like they do a warmblood. They are obviously susceptible too.

[LaurieB]

@Laurierace

One thing you never hear about with TBs is EVA. I often wondered why they don’t publish a TBs EVA status like they do a warmblood. They are obviously susceptible too.

Every TB that goes through the Keeneland sales ring (probably Fasig Tipton too) has to be tested for EVA beforehand. The results are available in the sales office each day of the sale.

[Elles]

In theory every offspring of a carrier has a 50% chance to also become a carrier. So I think Gainsborough was not a carrier. But still one would think that there should be more carriers than 4% within the TB population.

[Texarkana]

I’m going to toss this out there, but I’m probably going to botch the wording of what I’m trying to say:

Warmblood/sport horse breeders often lament that modern race-bred thoroughbreds do not embody the characteristics desired for sport. They are usually quick to blame race breeders for not valuing those characteristics, thus “breeding them out” of the population.

But what if the ideal “sport” phenotype in thoroughbreds is/was associated with the FFS genotype?

What if that desirable sport phenotype (as well as the allele for FFS) essentially removed itself from the thoroughbred population through embryonic death?

Along the same line, what if that sport phenotype and the allele for FFS were able to persist in warmbloods through out-crossing?

Just a thought…

[Laurierace]

@LaurieB

Every TB that goes through the Keeneland sales ring (probably Fasig Tipton too) has to be tested for EVA beforehand. The results are available in the sales office each day of the sale.

I didn’t mean they weren’t tested, I apologize if I made it seem that way. I meant they don’t advertise their status with TBs like they do WBs. Every time I looked up a stallion for my warmblood mare they had their EVA status and WFFS status right there for everyone to see. I have never seen that for a TB. I guess it is just assumed they are negative unless they say otherwise but it isn’t like that with WBs.

[vineyridge]

One thing to remember is that it has been TB breeding gospel for over fifty years–at least in the USA-- to do multiple crosses in the fourth and fifth generations and not closer. That lack of close breeding would reduce significantly the odds of carriers meeting each other.

From the research that I’ve done it appears that WB breeders use closer breeding much more frequently.

[chector]

Readers may find something of interest in this survey http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2019/03/wffs-sweeps-the-breeding-world/ regards, Christopher Hector

[Elles]

Maybe it is linked to the ability for jumping :winkgrin:.

[Edre]

@chector

Readers may find something of interest in this survey http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/201…reeding-world/ regards, Christopher Hector

Not to be the person who splits hairs, but the article linked above states that Westfalen says the gene started with the TB stallions. My understanding of the translation is that they acknowledged the mutation may have happened earlier, those two stallions were simply the only horses in common across all the (approx 2000) carrier pedigrees they referenced and therefore likely to be the introductory point for the warmblood breeding.

Do you have a better translation that indicates they said something different? I would love if you could share that, if you do! My rudimentary translation skill was frustratingly lacking…

@Laurierace, I attribute a lot of the publicising of WFFS status to the EU law mandating disclosure, for the European stallions. On the North American side of things, many stallion owners and stations were right in the front of testing and disclosing, which was a direct comparison to some of the more unwilling German counterparts so I think the culture of transparency and education won out when I look at stallion owners like Maryanna Haymon with Don principe, and stations like Hilltop.

[beowulf]

Reading CH’s article now, one question –

@Werner Schade

“That hurts, all the big boys, but for me, how this problem was dealt with was a little bit hysterical, because we don’t have so many verified cases of this disease and we don’t have data on possible abortions. But with Londonderry and Don Frederico, there is no history of a higher rate of abortions and missed pregnancies. They had a lot of mares, and if there had been a high rate of abortions then we would know that, the breeders would tell us.”

I don’t profess to know how the inner-workings of record keeping with the Celle, or any stud-book really – but are there actually people/stallion owners, confirming live births for all of the doses or straws sold? I am not a breeder… but I can’t remember the last time I heard one of my breeder friends say that a SO followed up with them to see if their mare took, carried to term, and had a foal stand and nurse?

At least with the JC there is serious record keeping when it comes to stallions covering mares, because it happens, right there, in front of people… but I am imagining selling doses is much harder to keep track of than live cover…

[Texarkana]

Plus I think with frozen a lot of people chock a lack of success up to human error… or a mare who just doesn’t catch with frozen…

[Edre]

And people reporting an issue, depending on customer service of who they are dealing with, can be told it was their error, buyer beware, or just “tough luck” … so even if there are problems, there can be quite a bit of room to “pass the buck” so to speak. (“It’s not the semen/stallion/station, it’s your shipper/vet/mare/incorrect handling”.)

As far as non-live cover goes there are some contracts that make it easier to track successful conception, but as far as I’m aware … good luck. It’s made more complicated by people who can get multiple pregnancies on one dose (splitting it up) or use a dose other than as indicated…

The best indication I think might exist would be following the necessary paperwork (insemination certificate & then follow up on that), but that requires someone to have the follow up to register a foal which not everyone will do. And what the verbands do with those certificates and numbers I don’t actually know. Hypothetically the information is there to compile this data from and I assume there is some data of the sort (the Westfalen numbers indicate they’re looking at some statistic like this, maybe?). but again, as far as I am aware the accuracy of those numbers would all be completely reliant on someone completing the processes.

[EventerAJ]

@beowulf

Reading CH’s article now, one question –

I don’t profess to know how the inner-workings of record keeping with the Celle, or any stud-book really – but are there actually people/stallion owners, confirming live births for all of the doses or straws sold? I am not a breeder… but I can’t remember the last time I heard one of my breeder friends say that a SO followed up with them to see if their mare took, carried to term, and had a foal stand and nurse?

At least with the JC there is serious record keeping when it comes to stallions covering mares, because it happens, right there, in front of people… but I am imagining selling doses is much harder to keep track of than live cover…

Most TB stud farms don’t get paid until a live foal is on the ground (LFS&N), so it would be noticed right away if multiple mares were slipping or aborting from a particular stallion. And yes, busy TB farms want to know in 2 weeks if your mare is checked in foal, if you don’t call them they will call you. This is both to manage the stallions book/schedule and to invoice stud fee when the time comes.

[beowulf]

@EventerAJ

Most TB stud farms don’t get paid until a live foal is on the ground (LFS&N), so it would be noticed right away if multiple mares were slipping or aborting from a particular stallion. And yes, busy TB farms want to know in 2 weeks if your mare is checked in foal, if you don’t call them they will call you. This is both to manage the stallions book/schedule and to invoice stud fee when the time comes.

Sorry, I should have clarified I was referring to WB stallion owners when I said I couldn’t remember the last time I heard they got a call from the SO confirming pregnancy… But yes, agree with all you said re: TB stud farms and being in the know about slipping and/or aborted pregnancies. It’d make itself pretty obvious, wouldn’t it…

I just can’t wrap my head around how the WBs as a whole would be able to track whether or not slipped pregnancies/abortions were a big issue in their studbooks, considering how complex AI is and how much can be chalked up to a “fluke”: poor handling, poor timing, unreceptive mare, etc… So I don’t understand that particular quote by WS, because it seems that at the moment it’s very unquantifiable whether or not there really is an issue with regards to lost pregnancies and/or abortions in WBs, as not every single dose is tracked…