What colors are horses like these?

[OverandOnward]

@JB

But also, it’s not necessarily that the colors aren’t allowed, they just aren’t listed as an option.

If they denied registration based on color, then the color was not allowed.

Some registries did do that. Still do? Basically casting aspersions on the authenticity of a foal’s pedigree, as stated by the owner.

However you are correct that owners of purebreds are often only able to see colors that are allowed by the registry. So all of their horses are one of those colors, because the owner doesn’t acknowledge any other possibility.

But that does not change the fact that many color-restricted breeds do have more color than they are willing to admit exists in the breed. Color is still seen by some as a hallmark of a purebred, even though scientifically that is not accurate. I know some people who will never give up that opinion (“knowledge”, in their lexicon).

We won’t even get into the black dots that appear on some horses, but aren’t there in the eyes of people doing registration descriptions.

From childhood onward, I have been schooled more than once by friends not to remark on interesting points of color on their horses or other horses at their favorite shows!

[ShenanAnna]

Albino, at least in mice and rabbits, has pink eyes.

[Fiesta01]

All of mine had minimal white on one or two behind. Not even a quarter way up the pastern. My only gelding had, like yours, a few white hairs where a star would have been. But by the time he hit his 30s, it greyed out and became big. In the winter, the white would get very soft and really fluffy.

12’ish -

35’ish -

Gotta love those bay TBs.

[Hightale]

An issue with the PRE for sure!
It’s not that long ago (2002) they opened up the stud book to allow chestnut & dilutes which due to the shared bloodlines with the PSL before the stud books were split were a common throwback. But for over 30 years it was black, bay or grey only.
The APSL always allowed registration of purebred dilutes hence chestnut, palomino, cremello, perlino and buckskin being more prevalent in the Luso.

[LaurieB]

Here are a couple of my plain bays. We probably have 5-6 of them.

colt

filly

[2DogsFarm]

Yup.
My own TB (bred to race, never registered because: slow ) had the same LH anklet & maybe 3 white hairs on his forehead.
Even at 27, he had minimal gray on his face, & maybe 10 white hairs where a star would be.
He also had a Bend Or spot, left flank.

[JB]

@Scribbler

frame Overo actually mutated in Spanish stock in North America,

Frame exists in many breeds that don’t have any Spanish origin though

@Scribbler

Also frame Overo which is lethal white is not necessarily a great thing

Why? it’s only a problem in the homozygous form. There’s no health issue at all in the hetero form

@Scribbler

And some Splash bald face horses are deaf if they have white ears.

deafness is about the inner ear (the actual structure “inner ear”) and lack of pigment there. The color of the ear itself has nothing to do with it. Most Splash horses aren’t deaf, thankfully

@Scribbler

I absolutely have seen pure white horses with pink skin and blue eyes. But now I think genetically they are maximum white of one of the pinto patterns like Splash?

Yes, they are 1 entire white spot, so lacking pigment in the skin, with blue eyes. Homozygous Sabino1 does that. Several White genetics do that as well, there are several White TB lines that produce all white horses.

@OverandOnward

If they denied registration based on color, then the color was not allowed.

2 separate situations. It is not NECESSARILY that the colors weren’t allowed. It’s that they were not a listed option so you had to choose Chestnut, rather than Palomino. The dilute TB wasn’t denied registration, it just was called chestnut.

There’s ALSO the issue of certain registries not allowing certain colors, or even too much white. Just recently in the last few weeks, one of the WB registries which has forever denied registration of horses with too much white, has just allowed that. I forget which one - Hanoverian I think.

@ShenanAnna

Albino, at least in mice and rabbits, has pink eyes.

Albinism produces different results in difference species. Albino people have blue eyes, not red/pink.

[Fiesta01]

Gorgeous horses!! Nothing plain about them.

[jvanrens]

@JB

Until quite recently, the JC for example didn’t allow the dilute colors as registered colors. Palominos were chestnut, buckskins were bays,

The JC still doesn’t recognize buckskin. Just palomino.

https://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/registry.cfm?page=dotRegistryIdentifyThoroughbred

[JB]

yeay, I couldn’t remember if they got on board yet with buckskin. Gwendolyn Gregorio (RIP ) worked really hard to get the European JC to recognize dilute colors, which is how the American JC at least got on board with pali. I don’t know the status of buckskin in Europe

The JC also still thinks Roan is an acceptable color

[jvanrens]

I remember that. I believe it was the German JC. RIP Gwendolyn, she used to be quite active here. I haven’t searched that far. I can’t believe the US JC hasn’t acknowledged buckskins yet, after accepting palominos.

Don’t get me started on the whole Roan thing. There’s only one line of TB with roan, and I don’t think it made it to NA.

[Janet]

WRT color restrictions, the Connemara registries had a similar issue with “Blue Eyed Creams” aka BEC (double dilute buckskins, or occasionally double dilute palominos). Buckskin is a common color in Connemaras.

Nobody was questioning the parentage of the BECs, but it was thought that they were “weak”, and that breeding to them would introduce health problems.

At first they wouldn’t register BECs at all. Then, sometime in the late 20th century they started registering BEC geldings, and non-breeding mares. It is only in the 21st century that they will register BEC stallions, and BEC broodmares (no sure on the date .for mares)

[jvanrens]

The thing that gets me about the Connemara registry is that they (last I heard) call Buckskins Dun. There is no genetic Dun in the breed. You’d think they would update their breed colours, but I guess the old mans club won’t go for it.

[Janet]

@jvanrens

they (last I heard) call Buckskins Dun.

Yes, I mentioned that earlier in the thread.

@jvanrens

I guess the old mans club won’t go for it.

More like an “old ladies club”. They know that it is genetically “buckskin”, but “dun” is Irish usage and “buckskin” is not.

[Posting_Trot]

I think the prejudice against white markings on a horse was pretty deeply-rooted in popular culture.

There was the old rhyme: one white foot, buy him; two white feet, try him; three white feet, deny him; four white feet and a white nose, take off his hide and throw it to the crows.

There are different versions of the rhyme, but they mostly all suggest that less white is better!

[JB]

@jvanrens

I can’t believe the US JC hasn’t acknowledged buckskins yet, after accepting palominos.

Don’t get me started on the whole Roan thing. There’s only one line of TB with roan, and I don’t think it made it to NA.

I mean, obviously they acknowledge that cream is there, so what gives??? I TOTALLY understand the issue of smoky black, because those look like black horses. But MOST buckskins and palominos don’t looks bay or chestnut, respectively

Yeah, the 1 Roan line is in the Southern Hemisphere exclusively, afaik

@Janet

(double dilute buckskins, or occasionally double dilute palominos). Buckskin is a common color in Connemaras.

do they actually say “double dilute buckskin” or is that you? Either way, there’s no such thing - double dilute bay, double dilute chestnut = perlino and cremello. Buckskin/pali are already a single dilute, you can’t double dilute them

In breeds where cream exists, and where red isn’t a selected-for color, buckskin will always be more common, because statistics make it that bay is more common than chestnut.

[Janet]

@JB

do they actually say “double dilute buckskin” or is that you? Either way, there’s no such thing - double dilute bay, double dilute chestnut = perlino and cremello. Buckskin/pali are already a single dilute, you can’t double dilute them

That is just me, being sloppy. “They” just call them Blue Eyed Creams, and they use the same term for chestnut based, and bay based double dilutes. But bay is much more common than chestnut in the Connemara breed, so they are mostly bay based. ( I don’t think they are preferentially breeding for bay, at least not nowadays.)

[MsM]

Morgans used to have a “white rule” If a horse had white on the body or above the hocks and knees it could not be registered until around 1995. Pre-DNA, it was thought to be from a non-Morgan. Breeders would generally not attempt to register and would sell the foal as grade. Sometimes it was even hidden and sold quietly through a third party to avoid the stigma being attached to their breeding. (Kind of ironic considering some of the crossbreeding being done and hidden in plain brown wrappers!) I once owned a gelding with a belly spot that might have been pure Morgan. UConn even had a black foal born with blue eyes that could not be registered.

When DNA came into use, I think a lot of registries had to give up their “It cant be purebred!” stance.

I also knew some Paint breeders. They had lots of ideas and superstitions about getting paint patterns back then. Some were explained by DNA and others were exposed as incorrect.

[ShenanAnna]

Thank you for the explanation. The Morgan with a “belly spot” that was offered to me at a substantial discount would have been born about 1982. The breeder was a very well respected western rancher, and his horses had Lippitt lines. I did get another from him that was outstanding.

[OverandOnward]

@ShenanAnna

Thank you for the explanation. The Morgan with a “belly spot” that was offered to me at a substantial discount would have been born about 1982. The breeder was a very well respected western rancher, and his horses had Lippitt lines. I did get another from him that was outstanding.

Wait – what happened to Little Miss Belly Spot ???