What does horse welfare/horse abuse mean to you?

Sadly I listened to multiple trainers at a show this weekend quietly defend her in barn chatter. “Sometimes you just gotta beat em and get it over with” they said.

This is the problem. It’s very polarizing. People are political over it. If you make a statement saying that’s abuse people that secretly believe in it won’t say hello to you anymore. If you make a statement that that’s abuse people you don’t know say hello to you.

I hate political and polarizing things and this is just that. You’re either in or out. It’s like a fence post - on or off but you can’t straddle it.

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This is why I qualified my comment about riding being inconsistent with horse welfare with ”viewed in isolation.” I am aware that there wouldn’t be sufficient resources, or probably desire, to care for all the domesticated horses out there if they weren’t being ridden. But first, that wasn’t exactly the question being asked by OP, and second, I think the ethics of using these animals for our pleasure and convenience is something that’s important always to keep in mind, even if we continue to do it. Horses have paid a heavy price for their domestication and use by humans, and now that that use is, for most of us, for pleasure and not necessity, I think we have little excuse for not prioritizing their welfare.

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I understand hating polarizing things, but I also believe that animal abuse is one of the things that requires a stand being taken. They can’t advocate for themselves. If we don’t speak up for horses against the culture of training them by “beating it out of them,” that culture will continue, because the horses have no voice, no power or control over how they are treated. I know my own trainer really wants to justify away and minimize CD’s actions for a bunch of reasons, but I feel like, as hard as it is (it’s hard!!), it’s my responsibility as a horse owner and horseperson to not just let that slide. Maybe it will make no difference - but maybe I can at least get her to think about it a little.

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I agree!

Indeed. What, exactly, is abuse, and WHO gets to define it? When is using a whip (for example) okay, and when does it cross the line? WHO gets to decide that?
When my last boarding barn sold, I moved to a friends place. Very, very backyard-ish. By COTH standards (and even my own), I was… let’s just say it’s been a very long time since I kept a horse in any sort of ‘backyard’ type situation. We have stalls, a good arena, the bare-bones basics are there. I’m on self care, but I had to and still do, swallow my tongue really hard about how other horses are managed. My BO’s response to others’ regarding feed is, are they all at appropriate weight? Then they’re fine. Yet I can see the stress in their eyes when they are tacked up hours after their last meal, not allowed to have anything until after they’ve been worked, and some days it’s so darn obvious (to me) that the under saddle argument never would’ve started if horse had been allowed a pound of hay before it’s ride.
So is that actually abuse?? Depends on the eye of the beholder, I guess.
A farm I used to drive by every day kept horses out on a grazed bare pasture, usually no hay in sight, sometimes the only water was a seasonal pond (and many times it was pretty scuzzy before I’d see an actual water trough), and then there would be foals! On mares that were skin and bones. The pasture was also full of junk - pieces of sheet metal, barbed wire… I called a friend, and old-timer friend, who has more familiarity with turning folks in than I do, and talked to her about it. Her comment was that just because “our” horses would kill themselves in that situation, didn’t automatically make it abuse. I did stop and talk with the neighbors of those folks once. They said they’d tried, but had not made any headway.

Anyway, getting a little off there… but back to my original statement: WHO gets to define the line between okay and abuse? Because it is in many ways subjective, and subjective = opinion.

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I don’t think any of us would disagree on that :slight_smile:

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There are some evidence based practices that are supported by science as far as management goes, like continuous availability of forage, not exercising on an empty stomach to keep acidity low, using alfalfa products to buffer acidity on horses who are prone to ulcers (all performance animals), constant availability of fresh water, smaller amounts of concentrate and more quality forage as diet, availability to see outside and interact with other horses when in a stall, daily exercise and movement, etc that are far from general practice at many barns. Is that abuse? Neglect? Poor management? With the difficult and costly nature of keeping these animals sometimes that is a big roadblock to top level care. Also lack of knowledge on the part of the barn owners and boarders. Is keeping a horse under constant stress in a dark stall without outside view and free forage a worse sin than using a whip for a couple mins to make a point? Also you have to take into account the personality of the individual animal and how sensitive it is. Some horses don’t care about certain things and some are very affected by them. And what about the true working horses who still live in the world such as Amish horses? What about all those folks who pass along injured or lame horses who end up on a truck to the slaughterhouse instead of humanely euthanizing them? What about the horse hoarders who breed and do nothing with the horses and end up with a large poorly cared for semi feral herd? Few people anymore can accord to keep and care for every horse they ever have had for the duration of its life. Is it abuse to sell it on to a situation you won’t know about where the care has potential to be less than optimal? I don’t know the answers, but I think this is a great discussion.

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On the flip side of that, one of the fanciest horses I have ever bought was dumped at an auction because he was lame. It turned out to be just a bad, persistent abscess and I went on to sell him for a considerable amount of money not long after I brought him home.

Wouldn’t it have been a shame if someone had euthanized him?

I have a friend who I like a lot, but I hate her horse care. She feeds them a lot of grain, not enough hay, and takes all the “short cuts.” Her horses are often difficult on the ground and show a lot of pain/ulcer-type signals. But… they are in good weight, they are utd on all things veterinary and farrier, and they generally perform okay under saddle. They have shelter and water and turnout with friends.

Would I want to be one of her horses? No. But are her horses abused or even neglected? Also no. Sure, their care could be improved. But on a scale of 1 to 10, how big of a problem is someone like her? I know some people would say “10” and others would say “0.”

I share all this because there are a lot of shades of gray when it comes to this topic.

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There’s a lot of hullabaloo on SM regarding horse welfare currently. Some of it is horse people taking things “too far” imo.

Generally speaking, I think spanking and cranking are unacceptable except as last resort to preserve physical safety.

Generally speaking, I hold the three F’s as the basic tenets of quality horse care except when contraindicated by medical necessity.

But “pros” yammering on FB about how it’s unacceptable to carry any kind of whip or keep horses in anything less than 5 acre pastures 24/7 are taking things too far imo.

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The past couple days there has been a viral thread on FB from a saddle fitter critiquing the conformation and saddle fit of some of the eventers.

That post in itself doesn’t bother me as much as the hullabaloo it started with people posting screenshots of the horses and crying abuse based on how the horse’s topline looks.

Anyone who has been around horses for 5 minutes understands you can make any horse look ridiculously good or horrendously bad in a single still photo. But that fact doesn’t put a dent in the mob mentality. If you knew nothing about horses and read the comments, you would think the horse inspection was something akin to an ASPCA commercial with a Sarah McLachlan soundtrack.

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I think I know who you mean and that person is the first person I think of when we talk about the internet, mobs, context, and defining abuse. The word “abuse” is floated there a lot – which I’m not comfortable with when the only evidence is someone else’s photos or a bunch of screenshots. And if this is the account I’m thinking of, they do a lot posts themselves, with screenshots from jogs and identifying features cropped out.

I’ve tried to follow this person because there is some knowledge to be had but the threads generally put me off. This account usually has an unnecessarily confrontational vibe about it, and often seems coy and indirect while answering direct questions in the threads. I feel like the comments are mostly competing for a pat on the head from the fitter. I don’t know how productive it is in terms of promoting better, more informed horsemanship.

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This is one of those things where you can ask 99 people this question and get 100 different answers back. Everyone has their own interpretation of what constitutes abuse. To me, the video that was released before the Olympics shows an annoyed horse not understanding what is being asked of him. I don’t in any way interpret that as abuse. He certainly was not repeatedly whipped as some have said. I’m actually quite baffled how anyone could interpret that as abuse. I’m sure that horse did not have a mark on him following that incident. But that’s my take on it. I’m sure other disagree which is both their right and also the problem. Who gets to decide where the line is?

There’s an island off the coast of Rhode Island. There’s a stable with horses where tourists can go on guided trail rides. We went on an hour long ride. When we got back, I asked if I should remove my horse’s saddle. The answer was “No he’s going right back out” No water was offered and he did indeed go right back out. It made me angry and I never went back. The horses sit around all day wearing heavy saddles which can’t be good for them. To me that is far worse than an annoying training method.

Which leads me back to square one. Everyone has a different take and I don’t know any 2 horse people who agree on everything where horses are concerned no less the entire country or world. Every facility is set up differently and wouldn’t be able to conform to general standards anyway. It is certainly a complicated matter and I do hope calmer minds prevail.

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What baffles me is what you might consider “repeatedly whipped” if this was not it.

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This “whip” looked to be a longing whip. It’s a shoelace thick string with a lash on the end. It creates about as much pressure as a fly on the horse. It can’t penetrate skin, cause lacerations, sores etc. This wasn’t Indiana Jones with a bull whip. It was annoying to the horse, nothing more. Sure poor training idea. Abuse…no

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Have you been whipped by one? They really sting, especially if the lash catches you.

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Actually yes. We were doing to each other at our barn yesterday just to see if it hurt. Again annoying, not painful.

In the clip I saw( posted here on COTH) I didn’t see a clear view of the rider and I couldn’t see how the horse was being held. Nor did it show the woman hitting the horse in front so we may have 2 different videos?

I can only judge off what I saw and that looked like someone using the whip to " irritate" the horse. She wasn’t bringing her arm way back and was not 2 handing. It may have escalated as time went on and like I commented I don’t understand what the woman was trying to accomplish but if they were holding the horse and hitting front and hind of course that is abuse.

Do you have a link to that video?

I believe this is the video that is being discussed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y8_ROb0ZUk

Is it abuse? …Yeah I guess when coming from a top trainer or rider. Is it painful for the horse? I doubt it. Annoying/frustrating/confusing? Yes. I’m not sure there is any good reason for this behavior but on the 1-10 scale of “horse abuse” it’s probably at 1.0 for me. But, if this is every day training, it’s a pretty grim existence for the horses and riders.

I just did a search and saw there is supposedly another video where she calls a horse a b!tch. LOL. I’d hate for anyone to record me talking to my horses. I think I told one of them this week that I was going to euthanize her with a box cutter if she kicked me while I was trying to put fly spray on her.

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If whips were only annoying and not painful, horses habitually hit by them would not have such elevated flight / pain responses to them. Some of you have never had an angry whip aimed at you - as it should be.

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The ONLY gap I have with Charlie is whips. They are the only thing I have found that he is afraid of; I imagine when we was broke something happened with a whip. I continue to work with him and he has made progress, but he still will got VERY uncomfortable if we are riding and someone is lunging and uses the whip even lightly. If he can hear it, he’s on alert.

The ONLY time I have seen a whip used in an aggressive manner was as a teen. We had a colic prone mare in our show string and she was having an episode. She would not get up from trying to roll and the trainers brother whipped her up and whipped her as nessecary from going down while we have her walking in the arena. Just a run of the mill lunge whip, not a bull whip.

My two sense is that the whip can absolutely be used for harm if it can strike fear into a horse that is otherwise unbothered by anything and get a dying horse up on her feet (she had to be put down that day).

Heck, my high school BF and I would always try and towel snap each other because we thought it was fun. Definitely got (and gave) some mighty good welts from that!

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