Precisely. WAZ is the Parelli’s tool in a strategy to catch the attention of an untapped pool of riders with fresh wallets to milk: Dressage enthusiasts.
Linda P is not interested in “improving her riding” - it’s all about the Benjamins, friend! :lol:
[QUOTE=mandalea;3999536]
She has never bashed Classical, as that’s what she prefers, but ONLY Rolkur, side reins, draw reins etc.
And the ‘riding with fluidity’ concept is taken from Classical Dressage, and made easier.
They don’t price their stuff, Mark somebody does, and they don’t really get a say in it.
Now, is there anything else you would like me to clear up?[/QUOTE]
YAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA !!!
[QUOTE=mandalea;3999536]
She has never bashed Classical, as that’s what she prefers, but ONLY Rolkur, side reins, draw reins etc.
And the ‘riding with fluidity’ concept is taken from Classical Dressage, and made easier.
They don’t price their stuff, Mark somebody does, and they don’t really get a say in it.
Now, is there anything else you would like me to clear up?[/QUOTE]
YAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA !!!
That must be the grape flavour Koolaid you prefer ?
how many pies do they want to put their sticky fingers into?
That’s exactly it. The only reason they’ve hooked up with WAZ is to increase their following, which equals more profits. They want a piece of the dressage market. I think they’re going to have a tough road to hoe. I’ve only met one dressage rider, in my life, who practiced Pepperoni training. She did it in secret, terrified her dressage trainer would find out. So yeah, good luck with the dressage demographic Pepperonis. :lol:
[QUOTE=Nightlace;3999408]
I personally have never heard Linda Parelli bash dressage. I have heard her bash abusive practices, some of which are used by some dressage competitors. Here I’m referring to rolkur, hyperflexion, draw reins, bigger bits, chambons, & other gadgets. While one might argue that such practices or gadgets are not abusive when used by skilled riders, I am personally concerned about the potential harm to horses, even by well-intentioned riders.[/QUOTE]
I personally have heard both Parellis bash dressage mercilessly, it was part of their spiel in front of audiences, for many years, before they even had heard of rollkur or anything else.
They were just plain ignorant and definitely were not learning any better.
For some reason, they decided in the later years that, after all, dressage was a valid discipline, not an easily dismissed joke and that it could be used as one more marketing tool.
The past years they have changed their tune and now, the “right” kind of dressage is ok with them.
No, I am not a lover or hater of the Parellis, have learned some of what they used to teach a few years ago, it was some common sense horsemanship skills refined and packaged for sale, which is fine.
As an instructor, I wanted to know more and did learn what they at that time were all about.
All that didn’t fit with what I do.
I have developed other skills around horses that suit me fine and in some ways are definitely better, in my humble opinion, but that doesn’t mean theirs are bad in principle.
Although there is much to pick on their teachings, for what they do, why not?
Not everyone in this world relates to horses the same and that is ok.
That is also why it was NOT ok for the Parellis to bash dressage as they did, which was hard to sit there and take it, when all it was showing, at that time, was their ignorance.
Glad that their horizons are expanding.
All of us could use a little of that, including myself.
Ummmmmmmmmm, EXCUSE ME???
I was a clinic of theirs year ago where she made fun of Dressage in general and old everyone it was horrible and hurtful to a horse along with other things and remarks.
So… you are VERY VERY wrong.
Pat has made several statements on RDF-TV negative to dressage, etc. Many of us have seen it.
Its a marketing ploy to hopefully get more unknowing (cuz those who know wont touch them, I mean how many big riders, FEI riders, etc are running to them for help… come on… :lol::lol: ).
The unknowers will go because they dont know better.
So now, LP - PP are an advocate for the sport that they slammed for many years - WHY, cuz they are trying to drain more pockets with their silly dog and pony show.
Please… :no:
100% EXACTLY!!!
The only thing I have had ever seen of Monty Robert’s was his video with the race horses, I have not watched any of his other stuff. I do not do NH. I won’t even take horses that have had Perelli work done on them in for training.
I must say that my favorite trainer who has the best philosophy about horses would have to be Alois Podhajsky. My horses my teachers is one of the greatest books in the world.
For me, anything labeled “Natural Horsemanship” is a joke. Most true horseman have been using kindness and consideration to train horses all along. Then it’s like these people come around and purport some kind of “collective realization” that you actually DON’T have to blame your horse, abuse your horse, and beat your horse into submission to train it! WTF? When was that kosher to begin with? Then they market the hell out of this “realization” and their prospective “methods” and make millions. And people buy into that. Go figure.
I’ve used “Natural Horsemanship” all my life, but never called it such. When someone tells me they use it, it’s like saying that once they bought into the idea that beating their horse and using abusive methods was correct, but now that there is a different idea out there being marketed, they have subscribed to that. To me, they are just robots that don’t think for themselves and do whatever the “man/woman/group” tells them to.
I’m sorry but I don’t respect people that once abused horses to train them but now do not. I respect people that have always trained with compassion. The one’s that don’t market it like it is something “new.” They are the real horsemen.
So Linda had a bad time with two OTTB’s . She had help from DRESSAGE ORIENTED instructors. Capitalized words could give a clue. Leaning toward dressage or facing dressage does not a dressage instructor make.
They have a great marketing machine. I watched one of PP videos preLinda, and thought -“This guy is totally impressed with himself”. He still is.
The hookup with WAZ is mutually beneficial, in that it adds the dressage wannabe’s to the horseman wannabes. The dressage wannabes think that if they take one sideways step, they are doing LY, and getting from E to B and back again constitutes a circle. :lol: :lol:
Like many on this board I learned NH and some Unnatural Horsemanship before there was such a thing. You learned it all, you got bruised, dirty and dusty. It was called being a horseman. Or a nagsman. Maybe we could start a thread with other terms (non-pejorative only). :yes:
This is the key to it all…very well stated…and also sadly correct in regards to WAZ…moving right along- none of this really has anything to do with real dressage…
Well this has certainly been interesting and I have enjoyed learning about this “controversy.” Regarding Natural Horsmanship this is what I know from my own experience. A large portion of the crowds that go to the exhibitions (and I have been to many and seen all the biggies except the old masters Hunt, Dorrence etc. and they really must have been great) are people who really have not had any prolonged professional exposure and eat up every word. Just seeing how the volunteers who ride dress is a clue. You can watch most of these NH pros rattle on and on and if you can sit there you may get an ounce of helpful info. I have seen several John Lyons tapes and what he could tell you in 3 minutes (and that indeed may be helpful info, it was for me)takes him a hour and for that hour long tape you pay a lot of money. I have read Monty Roberts books and seen him interviewed and he is totally charming but I also read about the horrors inflicted on the horses involved in that totally commercial and horrible mustang thing. The Parelli stuff I see as pure entertainment and that is OK but people should see it for what it is. I will give another plug for Chris Cox here, there is another thread about him going on right now. He is an OUTSTANDING rider and there is not a boring moment to watching him; he is not as commercial as the others but he may get there eventually. He is not as glib as the others. He also states clearly his is not the only way. It is true that good horseman have always used “natural horsemanship” but for some rough and ready backyard types it has been, I think, a very positive thing for these gentler approaches to become well publicized and more popular.
Buck Brannaman is another first rate horseman in the ‘’ NH ‘’ field.
[QUOTE=GaellentQuest;3999919]
The only thing I have had ever seen of Monty Robert’s was his video with the race horses, I have not watched any of his other stuff. I do not do NH. I won’t even take horses that have had Perelli work done on them in for training.
I must say that my favorite trainer who has the best philosophy about horses would have to be Alois Podhajsky. My horses my teachers is one of the greatest books in the world.[/QUOTE]
:yes: Alois Padhajsky’s My Horses, my Teachers is a great read, but better than that is his classic: The Complete Training of Horse and Rider. This book is my bible, referred to any time I need a refresher or boost with difficult movements or attitude issues from a horse. Many other riders feel the same about this master.
[QUOTE=GaellentQuest;3999919]
The only thing I have had ever seen of Monty Robert’s was his video with the race horses, I have not watched any of his other stuff. I do not do NH. I won’t even take horses that have had Perelli work done on them in for training.
I must say that my favorite trainer who has the best philosophy about horses would have to be Alois Podhajsky. My horses my teachers is one of the greatest books in the world.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you might want to see it…or not. I have seen it as well - and it is a Monty Roberts ‘publication’, so it is not anti-Monty propaganda. He kept saying he could take a wild horse and tame it in one day or very quickly, or something. So he was challenge and took someone up on their challenge. He cut a mustang from the herd, ran it down for at least 15 hours while he changed horses. It finally gave up. He saddled and bridled it and rode it around. Tame or just worn out? I went into looking at Monty Roberts with an open mind, but have found nothing he says useful and that was just over the line.
I do like John Lyons - not everything he does, but I do like to start my horses in a roundpen. Now, he says you should not do more than 15 minutes of roundpenning at a time and most of the time the horse is at a walk. He teaches that as soon as the horse ‘gives’ a little bit, you ‘release’ - meaning you ask the horse to go forward or turn, you have to follow that up with stepping away and praise if the horse accomplishes it. I think this is similar to Chris Cox, but I am not sure. I do not blindly follow John Lyons, or anything; there are training methods he employs that I do not use.
There are training methods I do like of Parellis, but my biggest problem is that when we were at a horse expo and trying to get advice, the Parelli person there (Pat was there, but we were talking to one of the Parelli trainers) kept just trying to sell us the products. John Lyons seemed to have an ego as well, but he would at least answer questions without trying to sell stuff.
Richard Shrake - we had a really nice conversation about riding. He does not train horses, though, he trains the rider.
And I do have The Complete Training of Horse and Rider at home as well. I love that book.
spewed all over the keyboard!!! Thanks for the laugh!!
Ya know what’s funny? I was 20 years out of horses, started back after a bad back injury (I did not say I was smart, okay?), was at a low class, trashy barn with clueless instructors. Mixed barn, but my trainer was h/j orientation. Got an OTTB with issues.
Ya know who helped me? There was a woman at that barn who had trained with Hilltop. She had 4th and 3rd level horses. I saw her ride one day, early on, and thought, “OMG that’s IT!! Eureka!” She was generous and kind enough to help me, someone so very totally clueless. After she moved (and then I was out of that barn) I sought others. Not all the “dressage” trainers I worked with were helpful, but then, I now understand that they were not the kind of trainers I wanted - true of all disciplines. I have found one now who is a gem. And the difference in me, and my horse, is really amazing.
We did, briefly, try a lesson with a John Lyons certified trainer. He was appalled when he discovered that I still rode my horse, because until every ground issue was dealt with, you just couldn’t ride. And in our one lesson, he threw dirt at my horse’s butt to make him free lunge in the round pen. This lunging just consisted of showing my horse that we had the power to run him until he was exhausted, as opposed, to say, asking him to move in a way that would be beneficial to him physically, as I now do (and no, I don’t throw dirt).
In a nutshell: maybe Linda’s “dressage trainers” couldn’t help her. But then, OTTBs or not, I would say that they were simply not very good trainers, period.
[QUOTE=Horseymama;3999927]
I’ve used “Natural Horsemanship” all my life, but never called it such. When someone tells me they use it, it’s like saying that once they bought into the idea that beating their horse and using abusive methods was correct, but now that there is a different idea out there being marketed, they have subscribed to that. To me, they are just robots that don’t think for themselves and do whatever the “man/woman/group” tells them to.
I’m sorry but I don’t respect people that once abused horses to train them but now do not. I respect people that have always trained with compassion. The one’s that don’t market it like it is something “new.” They are the real horsemen.[/QUOTE]
Excellent statement there. Because some horseman have always understood how their own body language and training methods translates to a horse, does not make it “new” and it certainly doesn’t make it “natural horsemanship”.
As Dennis Miller would say, I don’t want to go off on a rant here, but…
What it does make, is someone who is smart enough to realize it makes more sense to learn the language of the horse and speak to the horse in such language, as opposed to forcing the lesser intelligent animal in the pair to learn the human “language”. That’s not natural horsemanship. That’s good horse sense. And it’s been happening for hundreds and hundreds of years. Anyone who tells you that you can’t have that conversation with the horse with out games or tools that will cost you a pretty penny is outright wrong and out to make a buck, not out for the good of the horse. They do NOT have your best interest at heart.
That information shouldn’t be kept a secret or have a price any higher than some lessons with a good horse person, no matter the discipline. To assume and to state in public that certain disciplines just don’t have a handle on that information is shady and wrong. As anyone can tell you, there are good eggs and bad eggs in every single horse related activity out there. There is nothing magical or special about it. It doesn’t require a special tool or a symposium or a $50,000 internship with a “master” to learn. It takes patience and understanding and learning from a horseman who’s more interested in success between horse and rider than they are in their own publicity and bottom line.
I’ll give my money and support to the people who can get the same “relationship” and the same understanding from a horse with out the pointless games and high priced tools every single time. They hide behind nothing. They are humble in the face of success. Dealing with horses is not a game to these folks. The possibility of a person being hurt, misunderstanding and thus confusing the animal to high heaven is not acceptable to these horseman.
No one will ever be able to convince me that taking a few hundred people in a weekend, charging them an absurd amount of money, giving them just enough information to make them feel capable and informed (when in fact they are recieving just enough info to be dangerous) and then turning them loose with a newly purchased (and usually their first) animal and some silly tools and games is a good idea.
And as Dennis Miller would say…
But that’s just the way I see it. I could be wrong…
Sorry I forgot to add Brannamann(SP?) to the group of greats; he certainly belongs there. As to all the round pen and ground manners that the Lyons people suggest…a good friend of mine sent 2 horses to 2 different certified John Lyons trainers and they came back with perfect ground manners and when she asked to see them work they were GREAT in the round pen. What she said was missing was ridability. She did not think either trainer rode very well nor did either horse go very well under saddle. It was an experiment because she was looking for people in the area to work with young horses and there were several JL certified trainers. I have no personal experience with his "cetified"trainers but some of these people are just gifted (prob. John Lyons is, Chris Cox certainly is) and you can not necessarily pass that on.I was sorry to hear that Chris Cox is also starting something where he trains people to train others. They all say that they can teach anyone all that they know and all that they can do…HOGWASH
The only difference I see between Buck Brannaman and any of the other celebrity/cult trainers is that he’s better at making fun of all of them than they are at making fun of him.
He’s also taller.
Other than that, same.
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