What is everyone doing on PPEs these days?

[MadTrotter]

My vet also said neck rads done in the barn with the portable are pretty worthless so it would be a haul-in under sedation. I doubt you’d get a seller that would allow that.

I did ask her to just run a couple views to ensure it wasn’t something catastrophic (I was unsure if this horse was ex-Amish and I’ve heard stories about suspiciously nice horses sold because of severe neck injuries from pulling back…some Amish trainers tie them for many hours).

But something like beginning arthritic changes are hard to get views.

[MadTrotter]

I tend to agree, but the caliber seller who would drug a very lame or psychotic horse isn’t the kind of person who will wait around for drug tests to come back, let alone return a deposit or purchase price days/weeks later.

[dmveventer]

I had a similar conversation with the vet that did my last PPE. The neck rads weren’t amazing but they were good enough to identify serious problems, and that was enough to inform my purchase decision.

But I’ve had neck rads done in the barn with the portable and sedation and they were good images. I wouldn’t haul out for that but I guess it may depend on the specific equipment your vet has on hand.

[Tha_Ridge]

Right. Most of my buyers pull blood to hold if there’s an issue down the line, but I’ve only ever had one run it at the time of purchase—that goes for low four-figure to six-figure horses. I told them I would not hold the horse but to call me if there was an issue. They took her home and all was well.

Interestingly enough, in my experience as a seller, there’s a direct correlation between thoroughness of the PPE and the price of the horse and it’s not the way you think. The $5k TBs I sell usually get the works, including back and neck rads, while my pricier horses usually sell off pre-existing X-rays and a basic clinical. My own recent expensive purchase involved a review of current X-rays and a clinical. I think I’ve said it on here before but it’s rarely going to be something you find on a PPE that becomes their downfall.

[Inimitable]

I realize I am not the norm, but I have purchased 5 TBs in the last 5-6 years and only PPE’d one of them. He happens to be the only unsound one sitting in my field retired at the ripe old age of 13. I’m obviously ok with a pretty high amount of risk, but I prefer to look at race records, jog video, conformation photos, and who their connections are. Now, if I were dropping $$$$ on a non-OTTB sport horse I’d probably convince myself to at least do a basic PPE. But, again, I’d be just as (or more) interested in the horse’s record, current maintenance, any rads already on file, and who the sellers are.

[Tha_Ridge]

@Inimitable

I realize I am not the norm, but I have purchased 5 TBs in the last 5-6 years and only PPE’d one of them.

I have purchased seven and PPEed two in the last two years, so you’re not alone. Not even entirely sure why I vetted the two I did other than having money burning a hole in my pocket for a change. If you look hard enough, you’re gonna find something, but all seven ended up having zero major issues and happily went on to their new families.

[Xanthoria]

@sassy

I’m not inclined to take images of every single joint on a relatively inexpensive horse.

The cost to buy a horse has absolutely nothing to do with its current or future soundness.

We need to stop using purchase price to determine what type of PPE to do. We need to start looking at cost to own an unsound horse for a for a lifetime (because unsound horses are notoriously difficult to sell) and compare that to the cost of a PPE.

You will pretty quickly come to the conclusion that a PPE is money very well spent.

[MadTrotter]

That’s interesting and while I see the logic in wanting “insurance”, as you say very rarely is anything on the PPE going to be their future downfall. They are a snapshot in time.

I guess my main point is, I don’t expect a PPE to surface anything a current seller doesn’t know. I might expect a shady seller to hope a known issue won’t vet, but luckily I have a good network at last.

For me, the level of PPE I get is related not to the price point of the horse, rather, how well known (or unknown) the seller is to me. For this reason, I waited almost two years to get what I wanted from someone I trust.

I’ve never had a horse get injured and think to myself, gee I wish I had gotten more PPE. It just has never been related to anything that would’ve shown up.

[EverElite]

Currently selling. Prospective buyers did physical, neuro and basic flexion/musculoskeletal exam, lab work, images of front feet and neck and a sedated dental. Buyers are also asking me to foot the bill for the PPE, reflected in their offer, which made my head explode but trainer didn’t seem phased, seems to think this is now a normal ask.

I did not PPE this horse when I bought him, so the relatively clean report was a pleasant surprise.

[fivestrideline]

@EverElite

Buyers are also asking me to foot the bill for the PPE, reflected in their offer, which made my head explode but trainer didn’t seem phased, seems to think this is now a normal ask.

Uhhhhh no. This isn’t normal, at least not around here???

Unrelated but as someone who was shopping recently on a very small budget, I understand the need to be smart about a PPE. If $5k-$10k is all you can spend on a horse, you’ll eat through that entire price with just a couple extensive PPEs. You almost need a separate vetting account.

[sassy]

I have to say I don’t agree with this.

I have owned horses for 16 years and have had the two of my horses for 14 and 16 years. One is retired. I’m well aware of the costs associated with maintaining a horse and retiring one. If I wasn’t I wouldn’t be looking to purchase one.

Are you suggesting I x-ray everything to make sure I’m aware of every possible thing that could possibly go wrong or could possibly be an issue? By that logic why stop at x rays? Why not ultrasound and MRI the whole horse? Where do you draw the line?

I have one horse with bilateral bone cysts in his elbows, of all places. I am not inclined to image the elbow of every horse I look at just in case.

I’d like to note I may do the above if I had unlimited funds and was looking to buy an Olympic show jumper. Unfortunately that is not the case for the vast majority of potential buyers.

Knowing horses and the things that can go wrong (as they inevitably do) and how much it costs to fix or deal with those things, I’ve considered and factored all of that into my decision.

[RAyers]

I’m with you. I PPEd my last horse 2 years AFTER I bought him off the track. I ride and judge the horse, not the radiographs or other single moment observations. The only reason I would do a PPE is as a baseline medical record for the rest of my ownership.

I work in human spine and the random junk floating around about equine necks is astounding. There is still insanely little data or studies to actually justify neck rads other than to line the pockets of the vets who do this. We have rads from millions of patients around the world and the ENTIRE spine world still cannot define a “normal” human spine (We have conferences on this annually!). Meanwhile horse folks make amazing leaps of logic based on horse studies of a few hundred horse spines. Thus, imaging a horse spine is pretty pointless unless combined into a large database where spine parameters can be made and any transitional anatomy can be accounted. And then a full MRI is needed to examine any soft tissue impairment as well as facet joint degradation.

A good human spine surgeon would never do a procedure without full imaging, primarily MRI (T1, T2, SAG-STIR). X-rays are not that great in the diagnosis of spine issues. Why would we ascribe that to horses?

[Xanthoria]

@sassy

Are you suggesting I x-ray everything to make sure I’m aware of every possible thing that could possibly go wrong or could possibly be an issue?

Nothing like that at all in my post. I’m saying that because a horse is inexpensive, it doesn’t mean it’s less likely to have something career limiting that can be detected on rads. I’m saying price is nothing to do with health.

@sassy

By that logic why stop at x rays? Why not ultrasound and MRI the whole horse? Where do you draw the line?

Nowhere at all in my post did I define what rads, ultrasounds or other imaging people should or shouldn’t do on a PPE. Zip on back up there and read the post again.

@sassy

I have one horse with bilateral bone cysts in his elbows, of all places. I am not inclined to image the elbow of every horse I look at just in case.

Me either - that’s a pretty unusual circumstance so it doesn’t make sense for me!

@sassy

I’d like to note I may do the above if I had unlimited funds and was looking to buy an Olympic show jumper. Unfortunately that is not the case for the vast majority of potential buyers.

See again, my point is that keeping an unsound horse alive costs about the same as keeping a sound one. Except you can’t ride it.

Let me lay it out: two scenarios.
Horse 1, age 6. Horse lives to be 20. 14 years of ownership. Horse is sound and in work until age 17 - 11 years.
Purchase price $10,000
Cost of PPE $5,000.
Board and feed per month: $800. Vet, shoeing, etc $200. Annual cost let’s call it $12,000
Total outlay on board for 14 years without any mention of inflation, just to simplify things: $168,000
Total cost - purchase, PPE and board: $183,000
Amortized cost per year of useful life: $16,636

Horse 2, age 6. Horse lives to be 20. 14 years of ownership. Horse had kissing spines brewing on purchase, but no PPE done so not caught. 1 year after purchase horse becomes symptomatic and starts bucking violently. Surgery is performed, unsuccessfully, at a cost of $5,000
Purchase price $10,000
Cost of PPE $0 - no PPE done
Board and feed per month: $800. Vet, shoeing, etc $200. Annual cost let’s call it $12,000
Total outlay on board for 14 years without any mention of inflation, just to simplify things: $168,000
Total cost - purchase, surgery and board: $183,000
Amortized per year of useful life: $183,000

Obviously things don’t always happen quite this simplistically, but also obviously an unsound horse, (whose issues could have been seen on rads etc) cannot be sold or used. Unless you’re a person with a great job/unlimited funds, you’re stuck with that horse, and likely cannot afford another horse to ride until #1 dies. BTDT.

Now, if you have lots of $ or land, throw it in a pasture and go buy another horse. This thread is not for you.

And if you just like having a horse around and don’t care about riding: magical. Skip the PPE and enjoy the pony.

But as you can see from the above, even a cheap horse costs a LOT more than a PPE to keep.

PPEs are not a luxury for the rich, they’re (relatively) cheap insurance for those of lower means.

[Tha_Ridge]

@Xanthoria

We need to stop using purchase price to determine what type of PPE to do. We need to start looking at cost to own an unsound horse for a for a lifetime (because unsound horses are notoriously difficult to sell) and compare that to the cost of a PPE.

I sold an unsound horse (with full disclosure, etc.) for $35,000. Obviously, I took a huge financial hit compared to what he would’ve sold for had he been sound, but I never really understand this illogical conclusion that just because a horse is unsound means you’re stuck with it for the rest of its life.

[Xanthoria]

I guess it depends what you mean by “unsound” - to me that’s a career ending issue. But if you managed to sell a horse that was unrideable for 35k YOU GO GIRL

ETA come on - you know most lame or otherwise actually unsound horses are not sellable. It’s a fact of life.

[sassy]

@Xanthoria

But as you can see from the above, even a cheap horse costs a LOT more than a PPE to keep.

I thought I made it abundantly clear that I was well versed in the costs of horse ownership? Really, I’ve owned cheap ones and expensive ones. I get it - I foot the bills

@sassy

One is retired. I’m well aware of the costs associated with maintaining a horse and retiring one. If I wasn’t I wouldn’t be looking to purchase one.

I have not done a PPE since 2009, (in which by the way, we x-rayed everything and horse still had issues we would’ve never found on a PPE) and I was more asking what was standard protocol these days.

[GraceLikeRain]

I think standard protocol is probably still front feet and hocks plus anything that flexes odd for most $x,xxx- low $xx,xxx and then as prices go up people start x-raying more. While COTH tends to be a more educated and likely more paranoid bunch, I don’t think many people are doing field necks and backs. Heck, I’ve met plenty who don’t even know to ask for a neuro exam.

I’m a big believer in PPEs. Many years ago I skimped on solar views on a young seemingly sound horse and bought into a career-ending issue. My small redemption story is that I did learn from that and years later passed on one that had a pristine exam but a joint looked “maybe nothing maybe something down the road” on film. The seller slammed me on social media for being a tire kicker. Through the grapevine I learned horse later developed chronic issues in that joint. X-rays are not crystal balls but I prefer not to buy into an identified potential risk.

Going forward I’ll stick with all feet, hocks, stifles, C6-C7, neuro, and anything more than a .5/5.

[awaywego]

Currently trying to schedule a PPE so this thread has given me some good thoughts. I just can’t a vet scheduled within a week - is this typical??

[HeartsDesireEventing]

I did a basic PPE on the OTTB I purchased earlier this summer to be my next personal horse, since my 19yo is stepping down. We did basic lameness and neuro exams, including flexions, and x-rayed front feet and the one hock that flexed a little positive. Nothing abnormal showed on x-rays, so vet’s thought was he was probably just a bit track sore. We also pulled bloodwork for Coggins, etc. I was asked if I wanted x-rays of his back, but elected not to, partially because he’s only 3 and not even done growing, and I had ridden him w/t/c and not seen anything behaviour-wise that made me think it was necessary. Essentially all I was looking for with the PPE was major red flags that, for example, this horse should never ever jump because of x, that would be deal breakers (the goal is for him to be my next eventer). No comments yet on how this will work out for me, as I’ve only owned him a couple months and he’s mainly been letting down, gaining weight, and doing some groundwork.

[sassy]

I think it depends on where you are. I’m in Maryland and my vet said to give them a week’s notice. Fortunately I took this one on trial for a week so I scheduled it right after I sat on it.

I looked at some in Lexington, KY and the turnaround time there was 24-48 hours. My conclusion is it depends on the area. I would guess Ocala is probably the same way as Lexington being a major horsey area.