Yes I specifically asked about proximal suspensories and they were investigated when we looked at hocks. No signs of any other soft tissue problem in the legs. Body somewhere is a possibility bu don’t know where.
sorry if this comes of abrupt. we evacuated from a fire yesterday so I’m typing exhausted.
Yes. And I have 2 saddles and there is another one he likes (which I have on order). Same canter in all tack. Very possible two things going on together.
@IPEsq gosh I’m so sorry to hear you are having such trouble with your new horse after a you went through with your previous. :no:
I certainly can’t comment on the tripping/leaning stuff.
But the respiratory stuff, well gosh I don’t know. I’ve had a sore throat and a cough from these fires lately. At first I was worried I was sick, it made me feel that crappy. I’m actually taking our puppy to the vet today for a mild cough too. I was worried about kennel cough. But now I’m wondering if some of us (humans and animals) are really just more sensitive to it.
Ah, don’t worry about it. I hope you and yours stay safe! I can only begin to imagine what that is like.
The symptoms just reminded me of another horse I know that constantly battled with soft tissue injuries.
My (unpopular) opinion… The imports are often as difficult to recondition as a thoroughbred off the track, and the transition from Europe to the US is often done incorrectly.
Life is much different for these guys in Europe. Most do not get turnout. The grain is different. The hay is different. No grass. A pro is riding the horse multiple days a week. The climate is different.
I don’t think he needs time off. These horses aren’t used to time off. And that might be part of the problem - the downtime spent from purchase to landing in the US. IF he were mine, I’d support the current issues, get him in a program with a good pro, and keep going. Some of these horse don’t just land in the US and thrive.
I am actually a professional although I have been focused more on rehabs as far as riding the past few years. He’s also extremely amateur friendly. My dressage coach has ridden him occasionally–more at the beginning than recently, but I did have her hop on him when this was starting. I know how to condition a horse (see rehab expertise) and retrain an import (not my first one, though it’s been a minute). Also had a lot of experience with reconditioning OTTBs. Usually for here, the hardest thing is adjusting to the footing. He’s done pretty well with that. I put pads on this summer. He grew some more sole. His feet changed shape a bit which is why we had to make some tweaks and just keep monitoring. I would not be surprised if there is a fall allergy component. But none of the vets have put him on anything for that. One specialist said the kind of swollen glands he gets (most likely the salivary glands since guttural pouches were clear) usually is from grass allergies. Nothing growing here for quite some time (which is why we are on fire), and so it can’t be that.
I was there when the radiographs were taken in Europe. It is the same horse.
We had some smoke from farther away fires before this started, but the AQI wasn’t too bad. And then the issue started. Perhaps the one fire to the north that is now the state’s largest fire in history had already started but it wasn’t really affecting us. But the worst behavior has been since we have had worse air days. It’s hard to say if it’s directly related.
I tried to move him around some yesterday at the place where he’s staying for the time being. We had an inversion that helped the air. And he was a bit crazed from the evacuation and needed to move and get his eyeballs in his head. He felt like he had 4 flat tires. Thankfully, he’s not one that needs to rip around on the longe and I could get him emotionally feeling better just trotting around a little. I do wonder if this is a PSSM kind of thing. He’d had about 4 days off I think? But also a lot of stress. Air too bad today. I’m trying to get my dressage coach back on him now that it’s gotten worse–I hadn’t been taking lessons because he was not really rideable and then the air. Usually I’m the one that gets put on to help diagnose (done this for a few of her other clients), but I’m stumped.
I had a phone consult with a specialist who said the BAL my local vet did wasn’t a large enough sample to mean anything. He might not be a bleeder–what they thought was that could have been smoke particulates. She said it would have to be redone. Totally useless.
He’s been here for almost a year now. While he had some trouble this summer with our record number of 90+ degree days, it’s not like the wheels just fell off post import. I took his program slowly and despite the big colic setback and COVID, I think we made it to an acceptable level of training before this… being pretty good at huntering around 3’ at home, occasionally jumping a few a little bigger, schooling some 3rd level dressage movements, a couple steps of canter pirouette, and starting to get his changes more true. Also had days of light hacks, walks around the property, poles, use of the Equicore system (that helped the canter strength and connection a lot), cavaletti, gymnastics. And when the weather allowed, was trying to build stamina with some gallop sets (though I use gallop very loosely with this horse… probably more like a 2 point hunter canter). We showed at baby level just because I wanted to get him around off property a couple of times inexpensively.
He’s just not himself. It’s even taking a toll on his personality. He internalizes. Has some anxiety. Not his laid back usual self. It feels unkind to ride him. I think I’m doing a balancing act with his health as far as work/no work. Like, I don’t want him to die from colic and I also want to see if there’s any pattern at all or any lameness that finally pops up, but he also clearly doesn’t feel good. I just don’t know where.
He is staying at an insulated barn for the time being even though the fire line near our barn is under control. There is widespread smoke in the area at times, but at least he gets some breaks from it over at this other place. Although he is getting some turnout.
I have a ridden upper airway scope scheduled for the 29th and he will stay at this other barn through that appointment. Trying to see if I can get my lameness vets back out before then.
One of my cats has lower airway disease, and I can actually see a heave line on her sides these days because she is working so hard to breathe. She’s indoor only and on a lot of meds. I’m sure she will be glad when we take our vacation. I wish there was a saline nebulizer for her as well–best she gets is chilling with me in the bathroom when I take a shower. I keep the house closed, change filters, run humidifiers, all that kind of stuff.
I actually have no idea how you might go about checking into this, or exactly what you might be looking for (any osteopaths in your network? If they don’t know, they might know who to know) … but one structure that would greatly affect both the respiratory system and the locomotory system would be the diaphragm. Perhaps it could have suffered some damage in the fall?
Sorry if I missed it somewhere- have you ultrasounded the neck? I had one with some eerily similar issues, neck xrays were “okay” (not strictly perfect but not really a cause for concern) but had some significant soft tissue stuff going on. It was a lark that we even looked at it- thought we had ruled out neck issues, but we were exhausting options in searching for a cause for an odd constellation of symptoms. Looking back, I suspect the horse has always had some neck discomfort, but the issues became dramatically worse around 11/12 years old.
Is there EPM in your area? That would be another concern of mine… we had an EPM case that initially presented with similar breathing issues prior to demonstrating any of the more obvious neuro symptoms (“slipping” behind, tripping, and bullnosed hind feet were the first of those to appear).
Diaphragm is interesting. I am not sure how to check that. Would the ultrasound we did for the last colic have shown anything?
I have not ultrasounded the neck but that is something we might do this week. His X-rays were good but I’m not ruling soft tissue out yet.
EPM is rare here but a friend’s horse got diagnosed with it this year. I have spoken to her recently about her horse, and this is also on my radar.
I also have to adjust something up high in the left hind (since the slip/spook incidents), and I wonder if something minor in there blew up and is affecting the right lead. Chiro says the manipulation hits adductors, iliopsoas, ilium, glide of stifle and proximal stifle structures. Flexions have been negative however.
He is still evacuated to distance ourselves a little from the smoke (which has created unnecessary drama at my barn), and I did a little walk/trot yesterday in a ring with a bit deeper and softer footing than we are used to, and he actually felt pretty good. Did have a lot of nose blowing, but he was able to clear it and then go back to more normal head carriage in between blows. We did have some adrenaline from being at a new place. I did not try canter, wanted to be sure we quit on a happy note. So far, the glands swelling has not been as bad at this barn either.
Sports med vets are coming tomorrow morning. I’m making a list from this thread. Keep the ideas coming!
If you’re fishing, maybe toss in a lyme/tick panel? Would be pretty weird, but might as well rule it out?
Falling to the ground twice is really scary, glad you were okay. I’d be suspecting neuro. Ultrasound the neck.
The respiratory issues could be related if there is a neurological component, could also be from pain.
Good luck tomorrow. Hoping for easy answers.
Yeah, I did that with my other horse as well at one point. Only annoying thing about it is that EPM test and Lyme test go to 2 different places. Pretty sure that they send EPM to UC Davis from here. And Lyme to Cornell. Although we have had ticks out here and things like Lyme are increasing, it’s been so dry and dead this year that it seems a bit lower on the list than some of the other possibilities. The other EPM horse has been here at least a year longer than mine but also came out here directly from Europe, and based on timing the owner thinks he must have gotten it here. At least he would not be highly likely to give a false positive, so there’s that.
I think we are already getting into the “pretty weird” category of things since we’ve already addressed the more normal stuff like teeth, routine lameness evaluation, feet/trim, scoping of various structures in the throat, routine bloodwork.
So far, my list for the first vet visit includes (in no particular order yet):
But a lot of possible treatments like a new supplement, nebulizer, etc. that I would have to order would take some time to get here anyway, so as far as those things I’m holding off until the vets can give me some more direction.
Had my dressage coach ride tonight. He still had some trouble with right lead, but it actually got better as he worked and not worse for once. Otherwise, looked not bad. Was doing some twisting with the hind legs at the walk, which is unusual for him (and also unusual given recent hock treatment). His glands have been looking much better since being at this other barn, so this makes me thing allergies is a big component (to what? who knows). Coach agrees we should try testing for EPM since 2 of her clients have had EPM horses recently here.
He had some moments when he wasn’t right, but he could clear his nose and move on. So similar to yesterday in that he had some leaning and rooting but could snort and sneeze and then continue versus feeling stuck in his throat.
So, still mystery something looking more like hind end or back with the canter. Then maybe allergies? And possibly something neuro like EPM? And if none of those, then next week, the internist will see what happens internally when he gears up for a nose blow. So, starting to prioritize my list maybe?
Allergy testing doesn’t cost much. I don’t think it explains everything but it’s non invasive and might be part of an explanation. I probably would do it, just to address and rule out something if you can.
I wrote an update after the sports med exam, and my computer ate it. Basically, they could find nothing wrong even though he exhibited all of the behavior under saddle, including tripping so bad in canter on right lead he jerked the reins out of my hands. Did recover fine.
He was very sore everywhere, which was unusual given lack of work. No lameness. Even blocked around the front fetlocks. Lunged with and without tack. Played around with saddle fit.
The vet was a bit frustrated, as was I. She said it just looked like he was trying to get out of harder work. For me, he just felt awful (maybe it didn’t look so awful) and unsafe at times, and his evasions with the contact also were not just physical but he seemed mentally and personality wise just not himself under saddle. They didn’t want to start imaging the spine based on his ability to mobilize fine. Said he was sore enough to shockwave in a lot of places including poll but it was too widespread to be reasonable.
The resident on the service has some like super trained chiro skills. He adjusted the spine from poll to tail on both sides. I have to say if you watch some crazy chiropractic videos on YouTube (of people), and then make the horse version, this was it. I’ve never heard a horse’s neck make those sounds. Horse seemed really into it, and he can be a worrier, so I let him do his thing. He also had this fascial release technique that looked like he was just pinching skin but it would make these loud pops. I asked if it was his knuckles popping, and he said no, it’s the fascia in the neck.
Horse got some days off with hand walking and turnout. The plan would be to continue with the dynamic scope, have a sports med recheck in early November, and if all else fails, we treat him like he injured his back in the fall with in hand work, rest and rehab like poles, Equicore, hill walking. We also pulled blood for EPM.
I tried a ride today, and personality-wise in the days since the adjustment, he’s acting more himself. Some of that could be settling into this other barn, but he is back to being more outgoing. And quieter. Some of the hand walking was on some pretty steep hills (benefit to this property), and he fared fine as far as his footing goes. While there’s some residual anticipatory type behavior from the issue having been brewing for 6 weeks now at least, and there’s still something going on in his throat, he felt pretty normal in his movement. In canter, so long as I allowed him to have some throatlatch extension, he was fine. The good news is he could do that without trying to put his nose in the dirt most of the time, and so he felt much more balanced and normal through the body. He did have some rooting on the bit when he needed to cough or sneeze or gear up for a sneeze. So there is still something there, but it’s much improved in that I don’t feel afraid like we are going to face plant. He was more symmetric and I could push him a little bit more forward. He doesn’t feel super because he’s taken a hit in fitness and strength, but he is more like himself and he had more try even if he was hesitant at first.
I’m hopeful that the adjustment helped to undo the effects of the fall so that now we can address the allergy/airway component easier in that I am hoping I can actually ride him through the dynamic scope.
Long story short, for it being down in the single digits overnight here the past few nights (barn/arena are heated for the ride today) with days off, he felt much better than expected after just doing a chiro treatment and nothing else. I have had a helluva past couple of weeks and I could use something going in the right direction for once.
There is one specialist around here who is something like $1200 for what is apparently the gold standard of allergy testing and analysis. I am not sure I could get in with her before we leave for the winter. This is one topic to discuss with the internal medicine vet this week.
I’ve done the basic testing for $200-400ish. Low end was at New Bolton. High end was the price for the testing plus the first round of serum as sort of a package deal.
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