Critical thinking skills flew out the window a very long time ago, and it seems rarely does someone stop to ask 'what does the term MEAN?" Some think that R+ is the only way to train even when they DO understand what R- actually is, and every time I ask someone who says that “How do you get your horse to take the left vs right leads, much less steer, without any cues?” Because physical cue is R-. Nobody has a good answer, and I can only imagine they don’t understand they’re using R-
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I agree that it should be good horsemanship and being able to read your horse to get engagement and not feel like you are forcing everything. OTOH, we all have some non-negotiables for safety’s sake.
I do recall one fellow boarder wo fell down this rabbit hole. She inherited a well-trained horse from her daughter and was an intermediate re-rider. But she read a LOT of NH stuff and tried to use it without any experienced help. Poor horse was so confused! I came to the stable one day and noticed her standing in the doorway of her horse’s stall. I got my horse, groomed and tacked up. She was still standing there. I asked what was going on. She said she couldn’t go in until the horse backed up and invited her in. He was standing there contentedly eating the hay that was at the front of the stall. She never touched him that day.
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I have a four year old kid. If I only did things he consented to, we’d do nothing but play with toys, watch TV, and eat popsicles every day. 
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God, what we all wouldn’t give for some consent based workplace activities, eh?
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I do think you could probably get to some R+ use of things like steering with vocal commands only. But there would be a lot of things missed, like helping the horse to position his body correctly. Right or left leads? Hmmm that would be a lot of breaking it down for a horse. Could you do it? Probably? But I’m not sure why you would.
What I find with sole use of R+ with some horses - meaning waiting until they volunteer a behavior before rewarding, like purist clicker training, is that some become very frustrated trying to figure it out. So just because something doesn’t involve physical pressure doesn’t mean it doesn’t cause stress or mental pressure. I think some people don’t get that either.
Don’t get me wrong, I have used clicker training with tuned-out horses, but that line of frustration and breaking it down so that the horse gets it can be very fine. Again, not for beginners necessarily. And the illusion that it’s stress-free is incorrect.
What I tell people is that confusion is bad for a horse. Horses really really like clarity, so as much clarity and consistency as you can provide, the happier the horse is going to be and the better they are going to go. When I see abusive or problematic training, it’s not usually because they’ve used one quadrant over the other (although again, I use P+ sparingly), it’s because they have been muddy and confused the horse, and now the horse is trying desperately to do what is wanted.
This is so tough. Inexperienced people want to do right by their horses and I appreciate that desire. But man, it’s hard to watch them and their horses. I’ve had a few of these ladies in my barn and I am ALWAYS happy to see them leave. Because honestly they become dangerous more often than not.
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The argument I’ve seen is that an R+ trainer’s cue/request isn’t R- pressure/release because they’re not applying it with the intent of making the horse uncomfortable enough to seek release of the pressure/pain.
Yes, this is ignoring the fact that most R- horsemen/women are also not applying their R- cues with enough pressure to make the horse uncomfortable or cause pain. I blocked those people and pages so I don’t have to see their nonsense again.
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Agree that waiting for a horse to do something, especially with the horse having some understanding he’s supposed to do SOMEthing to get a reward but having no idea what that is, is frustrating on both sides. I can tell you that if I did that with my horses at liberty, they’d just leave. If they were on a lead, they’d start just trying all kinds of things, some of which I didn’t want and potentially harmful, or they’d just tune out and stop trying anything.
The idea of “discomfort” and “uncomfortable enough” has been so bastardized by those who don’t get it. A LOOK can be an uncomfortable cue. A fly on them is uncomfortable (ok, annoying, more than uncomfortable) so they swish their tail or stomp a foot or swing their head around. How is that better than a light finger on their side or rump or shoulder?
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I like that at the heart of it is a desire for all of the good words thrown out here - assent, enthusiastic, connected, eager, etc.
Sometimes I have to do something I know my horse doesn’t want to but trying to find the small moments of allowing a safe opinion or choice feels really meaningful and for me has built a lot of mutual trust.
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I have MS. I have bad balance, worse coordination, and I get really tired very quickly.
I EARN the consent of the horses when I go beyond the mindless lesson horse going around the ring’s fence mode. I earn the horse’s consent by timing my aids properly, using the lightest amount of pressure, and by releasing my aids immediately whether the horse “obeys” the aid or not.
I also earn the horse’s consent by making really sure that the horse is as comfortable as possible. Elderly lesson horses get the BOT or Smart Therapy butt blanket, the Fenwick Western pad that covers their loins (the BOT Western pad would also work), the BOT poll cap, the Fenwick Face Mask with Ears, Micklem bridles and titanium bits from Fager bits. I want the lesson horses I ride to be as comfortable as possible when I ride them.
I also praise these horses lavishly. Would you believe that most lesson horses seem to suffer from a praise deficit? I had to teach some lesson horses in their 20s what praise was and why they could relax and enjoy it.
One of the favorite praise sessions is “GOOD boy (or girl), go to Debbie so she can praise you too,” loosen the rein, go to my riding teacher, and then she fusses over the horse for being so GOOD!
Horses want to feel proud of themselves just as much as we do.
I KNOW that the only reason I can ride these horses safely is that they consent to carry me around in spite of my physical difficulties. After I am around these horses some I am very sure that they realize that they are much stronger than I am and how easy it is to push me around. Horse and I work it out, and it helps that my riding teacher is there to step in if necessary.
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That’s a really good note too. I find that people are often really really rude in horse-language while trying to catch or love on their horses. For instance, 9 times out of 10 if there’s a catching problem it’s because someone walks out to the pasture with excitable, loving body language and the horse is like “woah man, your energy is just WAYYYY too intense” (totally anthropromophizing here, but just to illustrate the reaction). The human thinks they just love their horses so much, and the horse just feels the pressure.
I do find that many people don’t praise their horses enough. I reinforce almost everything I teach with praise. I probably go overboard, but I want to be sure the horse understands that they had the right reaction, so they aren’t guessing.
And I haven’t met a horse yet who doesn’t love praise.
I do agree that physical deficiencies can sometimes manifest in positives for the horse. I have hip and back problems and at one point my hips were so bad I just couldn’t use my legs in any reasonable fashion. I had to teach my horse how to not only be more tuned into my seat aids, but also how to respond to the whip touch in lieu of some leg aids. I can’t muscle him/them around because I’m broken, so I have to be more creative with how I use the aids.
Baucher learned that too, in his second method. I really identify with what he went through!
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This is the entire root of this whole situation. Not understanding horse language at alllll
The farthest edge of our pasture is about 1000’ from where I’m first visible coming to them up the hill. If I’m in a good mood, they’ll see me, and come marching over, whether they know it means they need to come in for breakfast or dinner (and didn’t hear me whistling them in) or just to come see what I’m doing if I’m out there spreading fly predators.
But if I’m in a bad mood, even if I think I’m walking “in a good mood”, they’ll stare, cock a leg, decide whether to ignore me or move the other way. And if my goal is to get them to come in, and if I don’t “fix my face”, they won’t be caught, won’t follow me back to the barn, etc
People tend to forget that we are a predator, if they even remember that horses are prey animals. It’s easy for our body language to be read by a horse as predatory
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Same for me. Most of our riding this last 8 months has been a the walk, and he is SO much more sensitive to my aids now, its quite lovely!
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ROFL. If I’m in a bad mood (which is usually stress related), and go into the pasture they MOB ME because I might have something good (my pockets always smell like treats, even though I don’t have any), but then they all stand around and yawn excessively, which is a really interesting behavior.
Especially my “closest” relationship horse. If I’m like that, he’ll nip at me a little and just stand there and yawn and yawn and yawn. I’m not sure if he’s trying to help me get rid of the stress and tension or it’s communicated to him and he’s like “woah, let’s get rid of this” but he ONLY does it when I’m highly tense. My other more dominant guy will nudge me with his nose. My two “lower ranking” herd members will come and check in while I’m stressed but they feel more frantic in their requests to be acknowledged.
Message received. Those are the days I don’t ride but generally hang out with them. If I’m communicating that much tension just walking into the pasture, there’s no way I’ll be productive in a training session.
I suppose in that way I’m following the “horse doesn’t want to be ridden” model but it’s more about “horse shouldn’t be ridden by ME in this moment” LOL 
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Not sure, but I think, I do consent based training with my horses… if you sit on a horse which is powerfully moving with a very light connection, it is consent based…. If the horse would like to take off it could…
I came to this conclusion because of my first show. there my horse who did a beautiful test at home decided that the situation was too much for her. maybe I did not give her enough security but she mainly went backward and not much forward…. In that situation I thought that forceful riding might be useful for a show…. Now show season starts again and I hope that her consent improved 
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I do that too. Some days it’s better for all of us if I don’t.
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I don’t think that is how people use the term.
Most of us would call you a sensitive rider on a well schooled horse who enjoys his job. How he became well schooled would be where the questions arise. If there were days in his training where he didn’t have that willingness - did you get off?
Most of us would have to say no. There isn’t a horse that is always willing and offers a perfect ride without correction. And no horse gets to competition level without correction. That is the definition of training.
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OMG yes. I personally know someone who buys into this consent stuff and is now on their THIRD horse who is biting at them and otherwise telling them to eff off.
I agree with the majority (I didn’t read it all) of what Alterration has posted. There are some HAVE TO situations and the horse needs to be able to comply. And I know we’ve had many posts talking about how the horse must have certain things installed so that if it changes hands it doesn’t fall into the ‘dangerous horse’ pipeline.
I hope this is a fad that quickly blows over.
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Well, I would disagree…. I agree with you that most people do use the term differently. But does this necessarily mean they use the term right? Most people here in this thread are not taking it serious and have severe doubts that it works…
You also train dogs so I assume you know what I am talking about. Several years ago I trained Curly Coated retriever and as you know for sure, they do not have the best reputation as working dogs…. for example if you force fetch them they loose their expression fast. they will do their job but they don’t look excited. also numerous repetitions of something in their training will have the same results…. but if you give them the feeling that they are a valued partner and they are doing a great job, they work like crazy and give everything….
It’s the same with horses basically…
this horse I was referring to is a horse I bought as a foal and picked up from the breeder as an untouched 3 year old. I did everything myself, backing her, doing the first jumps and so on.
(She has a thread in the dressage section). So I know exactly how many times I had to do harsh corrections (actually never).
Yes everybody in my barn thinks that I was extremly lucky to find the most willing horse ever, but I firmly believe that it was my way of training her. Yes it did take a bit longer she is now 6 and not ready for upper level dressage work but in the moment I have the feeling that everything comes together . And no I never ever forced her to do something. it was more like Ok girl we are trying this, you can do it…. and once she understood she was excited and always willing to do it, because she was proud that she understood the concept….
So yes I do believe that a concept which works with consent from both sides works….
I don’t think you can compete, especially not in a sport like dressage, if the training is exclusively by consent.
The horses doesn’t halt at C or pick up a canter at A because it was his idea or a mutual agreement. He does it because he understands what the rider is asking and complies. But it’s basically all the rider’s idea to do this, and the rider can’t be “flexible” in allowing alternatives.
Or maybe I’m misunderstanding the idea behind consent-based training?
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With the “consent training” sites I have seen, they definitely don’t compete. In fact, I rarely see them ride.
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