What on Earth is "Consent-Based Training"?

[S1969]

@Jenerationx

There are a bunch of dog trainers (Petsmart and others) that are “Positive Only.” It doesn’t work. You can use positive reinforcement to shape a behavior, reward a behavior, but with no P+ or any form of correction, you can’t stop a behavior. According to them, you just distract with treats and then reward when the dog is doing something you like. This creates downright dangerous dogs, or at the very least dogs with no manners.

And it’s sadly just not needed. Not using R+ is not cruel. Why is that so hard for people to understand? There is a best training method for everything. Sometimes R+ is the best. Lots of times it is not.

How to teach my nuisance barker NOT to bark? You can’t do it with R+, that’s for sure. As you say - it’s distracting him from doing it. So yes, maybe he barks because he’s bored. And if he’s tired he’s less likely to bark. But that is not training; it’s changing the environment/routine. (This is a real scenario. I have had 6 of the same breed over the years and all get lots of exercise - and only my youngest is a barker.) A bark collar works REALLY well.

I have a friend that taught his dog to heel with a shock collar. (This was in a hunting dog group and for a competitive event where off leash heeling was required.) The dog already understood how to interpret a shock collar as R- from other experiences. This guy taught the dog to heel with 2-3 sessions. Most people in basic obedience (and likely some on this thread) would disapprove. Because you can teach a dog to heel with R+. But why is that the only acceptable method?

(Also need to remind people that just because a shock/training collar CAN deliver a painful shock, it doesn’t have to. How is this different than teaching a horse to move laterally with leg pressure and/or a tap from a crop or spur?)

[Moss]

I won’t mention the lady at my barn anymore, but as a Fjord owner, if I consented to my horse’s whims, she would be morbidly obese. Her main hobbies are snacking, trying to sit on my lap (which was an interesting situation trying to explain to her that she’s too big to sit on my lap), snacking, going to my mom’s house for cookies, snacking, receiving hugs and kisses, and, oh did I mention, snacking?

If my girl had her way, she would walk right into our house, plop her buns on the couch, and eat marshmallow peeps, which are her favorite snacks.

Anyway, to each their own. I like my barn friend even if she’s a bit goofy.

I did want to share about my horse because she’s a funny gal who makes the “anxious” face (she furrows her eyebrows) when you tell she can’t eat grass anymore after a hand graze on her days off. Then she’s fine because I usually hug her and tell her that she will survive the walk to the pasture.

[JB]

@Jenerationx

You can use positive reinforcement to shape a behavior, reward a behavior, but with no P+ or any form of correction, you can’t stop a behavior. According to them, you just distract with treats and then reward when the dog is doing something you like. This creates downright dangerous dogs, or at the very least dogs with no manners.

Mostly

It somewhat depends on how new the behavior is. If you ask the horse to stand still at the mounting block, and he decides to start walking off, that’s not a punishable offense. You bring him back, reward him for quietly standing. I pretty much guarantee if you start P+ when he walks off, you’ll create anxiety around the mounting block. You CAN stop certain unwanted behaviors with R+, and even R-.

But a habit of striking at you on the cross ties, that’s a dangerous habit and I’m not opposed to a whip across the cannon bone (obviously there’s more to reading the situation, but you get the point)

It IS entirely possible to distract from an unwanted behavior, especially if it’s newer, and then reward for a behavior you asked for or that he volunteered, like just standing still.

@S1969

How to teach my nuisance barker NOT to bark? You can’t do it with R+, that’s for sure.

You can potentially teach them to not bark at things that are just normal things, like a car going down the road, or someone walking their dog, if it’s a newer behavior and you have a lot of time. Barring that (and it does take a LOT of time, and usually the help of friends to set up the situations), you can teach a “quiet now” command, which does involve time, and involves R+ to reward him when he’s not barking, and then you introduce a “quiet” command to ask him to stop barking. It may never get to the point of him not barking at things that are useless, but it usually instills an off button.

I’m not saying that’s possible with all behaviors, don’t get me wrong. Sometimes it’s so ingrained there’s not enough time or rewards left in the world to fix it

@S1969

Because you can teach a dog to heel with R+. But why is that the only acceptable method?

IME, it’s because people do not remotely understand R- beyond “you’ve made him uncomfortable and that’s not nice”

[S1969]

@JB

You can potentially teach them to not bark at things that are just normal things, like a car going down the road, or someone walking their dog,

I’ve taught my other dog to “whisper” which is something I tried to teach this guy as well. But to do so I needed to teach him to vocalize on command and then make it quieter. It hasn’t really worked out great and needs to be retrained; he vocalizes for treats and attention now.

But the nuisance barking is just that - it’s like cribbing. It serves no particular purpose- he is not necessarily barking at anything in particular. But once he gets going he will just bark.
He throw his head back and his front feet will literally leave the ground. I think there is some kind of endorphin release with nuisance barkers just like cribbers. And like cribbing - if bored it increases. So other things help (exercise, etc) but it’s a weird habit. And one I have never had to deal with before.

[Ghazzu]

@Jenerationx

There are a bunch of dog trainers (Petsmart and others) that are “Positive Only.” It doesn’t work. You can use positive reinforcement to shape a behavior, reward a behavior, but with no P+ or any form of correction, you can’t stop a behavior. According to them, you just distract with treats and then reward when the dog is doing something you like. This creates downright dangerous dogs, or at the very least dogs with no manners.

there are folks doing this with children and getting similar results.

[Obsidian_Fire]

@Ghazzu

there are folks doing this with children and getting similar results.

OMG yes!!!

[Jenerationx]

@S1969

(Also need to remind people that just because a shock/training collar CAN deliver a painful shock, it doesn’t have to. How is this different than teaching a horse to move laterally with leg pressure and/or a tap from a crop or spur?)

Exactly! It’s a communication tool if used properly.

[albytb]

To me, it just means listening to my horse and considering why he might be saying “no” instead of continuing to mindlessly push him until I get the right answer. Horses can’t communicate the way people do, but I think it’s important to listen when they do communicate when they’re not acting like themselves, etc. I feel like since I’ve adopted this mindset it’s allowed me to build more successful and safer relationships with horses.

But definitely some of the R+ people take it wayyy too far. Personally, I’m not disciplined or patient enough for pure R+ haha but it’s always my goal to make any experience as positive as possible.

[Ajierene]

@S1969

But the nuisance barking is just that - it’s like cribbing. It serves no particular purpose- he is not necessarily barking at anything in particular. But once he gets going he will just bark.
He throw his head back and his front feet will literally leave the ground. I think there is some kind of endorphin release with nuisance barkers just like cribbers. And like cribbing - if bored it increases. So other things help (exercise, etc) but it’s a weird habit. And one I have never had to deal with before.

I have found that the best way to “untrain” a behavior is to install a different behavior rather than trying to eliminate the current behavior. I have seen people who taught barking dogs to do things like pick up a pillow instead of barking or go get something or ring a bell. You have to first instill the behavior, then link it to what you want it to.

For example, I used to work with this dog that would lunge and bark at passing cars and people. I would take him on a walk and part of that walk was practice sit/down/heel/etc. So when a car came down the driveway I started just looking to get his attention by working with him and it didn’t take long until when a car came down the driveway he started looking at me like “what treat providing behavior are we doing now? It’s time, there’s a car there”.

The trick with your issue is timing when attaching the new behavior to the trigger - in other words, being quick enough to know a car is going to pass. I would be interested to see how it works.

For the record as far as the barking goes - all dogs are different…I know the one I worked with I could never get him interested in “fetch”. I wanted to so in bad weather we could go into the indoor and do something where I didn’t have to work much but he could have fun but fetch wasn’t his thing so we jumped jumps and did little obstacle courses instead…which still required me to do more work that I wanted…oh well.

[TwiSedai]

@albytb

it’s always my goal to make any experience as positive as possible.

Same. I’ve incorporated a lot more R+ and food rewards in my training, mix it up with plenty of rides with just verbal praise and scritches (since we won’t always be in a situation I can reward the way I want when I want). I do let him come to me when he’s ready to put the bridle on (I tack up in his stall), and it’s very rarely he won’t abandon his hay and come basically grab the bit from me then low key drag me down to the arena. Knowing that his “job” is bringing him at least enough good feelings that he is so eager to do it makes me feel like I’m on the right track.

I guess the bridling I do is what they would call “consent” based training in that I pretty much let him choose when he’s ready to go to work, though if he’s just not feeling it that day but we still need to do something I’ll still go to him to put it on if I can tell he’s like “meh”. I just take into account how he’s feeling, and might make it more of a hack or slow, stretchy work kind of day. Doesn’t mean he gets to be a bully about things though (and boy would he if given the chance). Or that he gets to get out of unpleasant things by saying no. It’s just good horsemanship to see their reactions and body language, understand it’s unpleasant, and try to make it as good for them as we can.

[FjordBCRF]

@TwiSedai

I guess the bridling I do is what they would call “consent” based training in that I pretty much let him choose when he’s ready to go to work, though if he’s just not feeling it that day but we still need to do something I’ll still go to him to put it on if I can tell he’s like “meh”.

I use bridling as a gauge too. I drove today for the first time since April of last year ad he shoved his head in his driving bridle. Driving is HIS preference without a doubt!

[RedHorses]

Not the same as your two, but when he was a weanling I taught my now senior to put his nose in the halter when I held it open under his nose. I did so because he disliked the crown piece going over his ears and it was easier if he put his nose in the halter than if I was chasing his head up, so to speak. He still very strongly disliked the halter crown piece going over his ears and he would stand for however long, then pin his ears and shove his nose hard into the halter to get it over with. He wasn’t happy about it, but also knew it wasn’t an option.

[Curly_Feather]

Sign me up!!!

[S1969]

@Ajierene

I have found that the best way to “untrain” a behavior is to install a different behavior rather than trying to eliminate the current behavior. I have seen people who taught barking dogs to do things like pick up a pillow instead of barking or go get something or ring a bell. You have to first instill the behavior, then link it to what you want it to.

I think in this case it might still be faster to teach him to whisper than to vocalize – the nuisance barking is a separate issue.

The bark on command cue has resulted in him barking in the show ring, which is…not funny to anyone but me. LOL. Other exhibitors have complained because their dog might bark if they hear barking. So I do want to work on extinguishing this OR teaching the whisper.

Nuisance barking…very different. It’s when he’s alone, often outside (but will do it at a window). I think initially there might be a trigger if he hears something. But unlike all the other dogs I have owned, if I let him he would happily embark on a 30 minute (maybe more?) bark fest of just barking to the sky.

@Ajierene

For the record as far as the barking goes - all dogs are different…I know the one I worked with I could never get him interested in “fetch”. I wanted to so in bad weather we could go into the indoor and do something where I didn’t have to work much but he could have fun but fetch wasn’t his thing so we jumped jumps and did little obstacle courses instead…which still required me to do more work that I wanted…oh well.

Same. I’m training it anyway but I wish he wanted to do it and I could throw a toy or ball until he got tired. Especially if he was barking.

[Alterration]

I didn’t have a nuisance barker, but I had a nuisance “phee” er. My Doberman made a noise that came from his nose, not his throat, so a bark collar was useless.

We learned to redirect. You couldn’t correct this dog because he liked negative attention. I accidentally created a monster when I told him “no” for knocking over a wooden nativity set with his nose (from then on, if he wanted my attention, which was always because he was a Doberman, he’d walk over and poke the camel with his nose).

The only P+ that he did respond to was the e-collar, but his reaction to that wasn’t useful either (he’d drop flat on the ground for a buzz, not even a shock correction).

I had to use almost exclusively R+ with him. He was extremely praise motivated. He didn’t even love the tug or treats. It was difficult. I constantly had to find things for him to do other than make that infernal noise. As he got older, that became even harder because he had more things to complain about and had a harder time executing the redirect tasks. The phee noise would be trotted out if the sun moved and his bed was no longer in it, or if his sister took his bone, or if she was looking at him, or if I didn’t have a hand on him and he wanted my hand on him.

Thankfully he was smart so he figured out the redirection techniques quickly but man, maybe it would have been easier if he was dumb. Because then he might not have complained so much.

Biggest pain in the butt dog ever. Lived to 12, which is an old Doberman. I still miss him. But wow was he an exercise in difficult dog training.

[Ajierene]

@S1969

the nuisance barking is a separate issue.

Nuisance barking is a separate thing. The whisper would probably be very beneficial in the show ring but a completely different behavior, like picking up a pillow or a toy, may work for the nuisance barking but if it is primarily when he is alone, that makes it much harder to train out…

That did remind me of a funny side story…I had this older thoroughbred that would panic a bit if he stepped on his lead but if perceived that you were holding the lead he was fine. So if he stepped on it and I told him “whoa” or something, he was like “oh yeah, it’s fine, human just tugged to stop me, it isn’t under my foot even though that’s what it feels like”.

So one day I had him and then ran to get something and had to go in the loft. In this particular barn there was a set of regular stairs in the tack room that went up to the loft. The loft over the stalls was lower than the space in the aisle so I could see down into the aisle and I am keeping an eye on him. He steps forward onto his lead so I quickly say “whoa” as he starts to pull back and he has the same reaction as if I were standing right there, like “oh yeah, human is pulling on it”.

So my new crazy plan is to teach the behavior, get one of those cameras with microphones on it, stare at it the entire time you are out of the house and when a car is passing, give him the command for the other behavior…foolproof…worried about driving? Just put your car on cruise control (that’s what it’s for, right?)…Worried about working? just tell your boss you are training your dog, I’m sure they will understand…I see no flaws with this plan…

[danacat]

IMO consent based training is offering an intermediate alternative to the thing a horse won’t do — then you circle back to that thing they won’t do in order to see if they will do it now.

Some simplistic examples would be:

A.) You’re riding along and you cue your horse to turn left and they refuse. So you then ask horse to turn right instead (which they do) then you ask for a left turn.

B.) Horse suddenly balks when being led; goes into sympathetic nervous system mode. So, instead of trying to force them to continue walking you wait — you stand quietly next to them asking nothing of them until they ‘ready themselves’ by going back into the parasympathetic — then you lead on.

C.) Horse constantly gravitates / lugs toward the gate when you’re riding in arena. So, let them go to the gate (consent) but continue to work by the gate until horse figures out that using more of the arena actually feels better.

It’s not “just letting the horse doing whatever they want because they’re not in the mood” What might seem moody to us humans is actually the horse just trying to find a better feeling situation that they can arrive at by having a choice — we give them choice by either asking YES questions of them (as much as possible) and/or turning NO questions into yes questions.

[RedHorses]

That makes it sound like you’re the one doing the consenting.

@danacat

Horse constantly gravitates / lugs toward the gate when you’re riding in arena. So, let them go to the gate (consent) but continue to work by the gate until horse figures out that usi

This sounds like ordinary, training with a new, socially acceptable, label slapped on it. Others in this thread have defined consent based training in a way that makes it fit their methods as well - I’m not trying to pick on you, danacat.

@danacat

IMO consent based training is offering an intermediate alternative to the thing a horse won’t do — then you circle back to that thing they won’t do in order to see if they will do it now.

Do we as horse people really need to squish our descriptions of ordinary training into convoluted shapes to make them fall into “socially acceptable to those lacking horse knowledge” categories? These categories seem to be described by social media (self proclaimed) gurus for the sole purpose of denigrating anyone who doesn’t follow their particular brand of self righteousness as evil people. Sort of Parelli like “we have the secret knowledge and others just don’t understand” pushed into “holy vs evil”.

I recently saw a FB post where the idea of bonding with your horse had been redefined so the poster could turn it into a bad thing that creates dangerous, unhealthy interactions with your horse. (Hide all from poster, block poster, hide post) Click bait.

[danacat]

“That makes it sound like you’re the one doing the consenting.” – In part, yes. I think it works both ways = a partnership. The OP asked what consent based training was. I gave my opinion on what I think it is. But to each his own.

[skippy77]

@danacat

IMO consent based training is offering an intermediate alternative to the thing a horse won’t do — then you circle back to that thing they won’t do in order to see if they will do it now.

Some simplistic examples would be:

A.) You’re riding along and you cue your horse to turn left and they refuse. So you then ask horse to turn right instead (which they do) then you ask for a left turn.

B.) Horse suddenly balks when being led; goes into sympathetic nervous system mode. So, instead of trying to force them to continue walking you wait — you stand quietly next to them asking nothing of them until they ‘ready themselves’ by going back into the parasympathetic — then you lead on.

C.) Horse constantly gravitates / lugs toward the gate when you’re riding in arena. So, let them go to the gate (consent) but continue to work by the gate until horse figures out that using more of the arena actually feels better.

It’s not “just letting the horse doing whatever they want because they’re not in the mood” What might seem moody to us humans is actually the horse just trying to find a better feeling situation that they can arrive at by having a choice — we give them choice by either asking YES questions of them (as much as possible) and/or turning NO questions into yes questions.

A.) This is how every kids pony I have ever known slowly takes over control of everything. Kid asks them to turn left, pony says no I want to go right, kid says okay, we’ll do it your way. Before you know it the pony is making all the decisions.

C.) What happens when this horse doesn’t consent to working near the gate?