What on earth to do with this saddle

[Scribbler]

I expect that any therapeutic riding center has a rigorous vetting of all their gear. They may also have a preferred brand of new saddle that works for their program. If they have an annual tack sale fundraiser they might take random gear to sell on. Otherwise my guess is that they aren’t in great need of random old gear.

[Kimstar]

@PDDT

Call Joe at Canterbury Outpost. He could give you an idea of whether it is salvageable or not. Www.canterburyoutpostsaddlery,.ca or Geoff at Bahrs might also help. I suggest Joe because I know he is familiar with Barnsby saddles, although possibly not of that vintage LOL. and he is my saddle fitter so I feel comfortable vouching for him.

This is probably your best bet. And Bahr’s has a ton of used saddles, even the “vintage variety”! I don’t know of any good saddlers in the London area, however so I would be trying Canterbury Outpost or Bahr’s. Someone who hunts may be interested in that old Barnsby.

And here is a (very) short Wikipedia article on Cliff Barnsby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnsby_Saddles There might be a lead in there, or just Google Cliff Barnsby or Jabez Cliff. Oh and skip Schleese!

[BigMama1]

@Kimstar

This is probably your best bet. And Bahr’s has a ton of used saddles, even the “vintage variety”! I don’t know of any good saddlers in the London area, however so I would be trying Canterbury Outpost or Bahr’s. Someone who hunts may be interested in that old Barnsby.

And here is a (very) short Wikipedia article on Cliff Barnsby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnsby_Saddles There might be a lead in there, or just Google Cliff Barnsby or Jabez Cliff. Oh and skip Schleese!

Is Tavistock too far from London? I believe Sprucewood Tack there does saddle fitting so may do repairs as well. Certainly they are closer to you than Bahrs

[csaper58]

@Scribbler

Without billets you can’t really gurth up a saddle and see if it fits your horse before you buy it. Most of us want to do that these days.

One of the best saddle fitters around had this advice on judging a saddle’s fit…

1. Put the saddle on the horse’s naked back, sans girth.

2. Lead the horse at a walk if the saddle moves, creeps back toward the hips, or up the neck or falls off the side it does not fit.

3. If it stays in place jog the horse, if the saddle stays in place it fits.

A girth is not required to judge saddle fit.

I would not expect the person in the market for this particular saddle to be deeply concerned with the fit.

As the original post indicated the possibility of selling the saddle to an unknown party via and advert, selling with the suspect billets cut off is reasonable way to negate the liability of selling a ‘possibly defective’ saddle to the sort of person willing to pay money for it.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@csaper58

One of the best saddle fitters around had this advice on judging a saddle’s fit…

1. Put the saddle on the horse’s naked back, sans girth.

2. Lead the horse at a walk if the saddle moves, creeps back toward the hips, or up the neck or falls off the side it does not fit.

3. If it stays in place jog the horse, if the saddle stays in place it fits.

A girth is not required to judge saddle fit.

I would not expect the person in the market for this particular saddle to be deeply concerned with the fit.

As the original post indicated the possibility of selling the saddle to an unknown party via and advert, selling with the suspect billets cut off is reasonable way to negate the liability of selling a ‘possibly defective’ saddle to the sort of person willing to pay money for it.

Ok, I am SO going to try that method of assessing saddle fit.

[S1969]

@csaper58

As the original post indicated the possibility of selling the saddle to an unknown party via and advert, selling with the suspect billets cut off is reasonable way to negate the liability of selling a ‘possibly defective’ saddle to the sort of person willing to pay money for it.

Yes, but aside from internet discussion boards, is there any real concern over being sued? I would bet that the chances of a buyer being able to successfully sue a seller over a 40 year old billet breaking is exactly zero. By definition the saddle is “vintage.” It’s almost old enough to be classified as “antique.” That means it is more than just possibly defective.

I think this is the last thing the seller really needs to worry about. The buyer - yes, they should worry about whether the tree is broken, the stitching is solid, the leather is dry rotted, etc.

[csaper58]

@S1969

Yes, but aside from internet discussion boards, is there any real concern over being sued? I would bet that the chances of a buyer being able to successfully sue a seller over a 40 year old billet breaking is exactly zero. By definition the saddle is “vintage.” It’s almost old enough to be classified as “antique.” That means it is more than just possibly defective.

I think this is the last thing the seller really needs to worry about. The buyer - yes, they should worry about whether the tree is broken, the stitching is solid, the leather is dry rotted, etc.

So, your position is…should someone be seriously injured by the failure of a piece of equipment you sold them, and they have the where-with-all to hire a lawyer…and know where to find you…you think there is no real reason for concern?

You think the fact that… “John Doe [or heaven forbid- John Doe’s child] should have known what could happen” is going to be your salvation? And you want to pass that advice on to others?

It is worth pointing out that… no where are all antique goods [saddles, furniture, cars] defined as “more than just ‘possibly’ defective”.

And that defending one’s self from any [even an unfounded] lawsuit can be very expensive.

And the possibility of being unsuccessful is not very much of a deterrent to people, when the settling of a law suit is often fiscally more advantageous than going to trial or mediation.

This is one drawback of selling a sketchy piece of equipment locally, as the OP indicated was their intent.

It is a drawback that can be completely eliminated with a couple of snips with a pair of scissors.

[StarPattern]

If it was my saddle, I’d take it to a saddler and have them inspect it and tell me if the tree was safe. If the tree was sound, I’d list it for a couple hundred dollars and note in big bold letters that the billets need to be redone. When you sell the saddle and ship it, make sure to write on the invoice in BIG BOLD LETTERS that the billets need to be replaced for the rider’s safety. Then you’ve done your due diligence and if the buyer is dumb enough to ignore all your warnings, they can’t come back and say they didn’t know because you wrote it right there.

[S1969]

@csaper58

So, your position is…should someone be seriously injured by the failure of a piece of equipment you sold them, and they have the where-with-all to hire a lawyer…and know where to find you…you think there is no real reason for concern?

You think the fact that… “John Doe [or heaven forbid- John Doe’s child] should have known what could happen” is going to be your salvation? And you want to pass that advice on to others?

It is worth pointing out that… no where are all antique goods [saddles, furniture, cars] defined as “more than just ‘possibly’ defective”.

And that defending one’s self from any [even an unfounded] lawsuit can be very expensive.

And the possibility of being unsuccessful is not very much of a deterrent to people, when the settling of a law suit is often fiscally more advantageous than going to trial or mediation.

This is one drawback of selling a sketchy piece of equipment locally, as the OP indicated was their intent.

It is a drawback that can be completely eliminated with a couple of snips with a pair of scissors.

I think you’re being alarmist. That’s all. Using this theory, we shouldn’t ever sell anything used because it could be defective and we could get sued. Just because a saddle isn’t 40 years old doesn’t mean the stitching or leather is in good condition. Buyers should always be aware when buying anything used.

As I said, I would probably make the buyer sign a bill of sale noting the age and condition of the saddle before cutting off the billets. But it would be less of fear of being sued v. wanting to be sure that they knew what they were buying.

[csaper58]

@S1969

I think you’re being alarmist. That’s all. Using this theory, we shouldn’t ever sell anything used because it could be defective and we could get sued. Just because a saddle isn’t 40 years old doesn’t mean the stitching or leather is in good condition. Buyers should always be aware when buying anything used.

As I said, I would probably make the buyer sign a bill of sale noting the age and condition of the saddle before cutting off the billets. But it would be less of fear of being sued v. wanting to be sure that they knew what they were buying.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse in order to prolong a discussion in hopes of having the last word.

You go ahead and never sell another thing because your paralyzed with the fear of being sued.

Or and write out an itemized bill of sale that lists everything you can think of that might be defective with the the saddle and try get a buyer to sign it, if that floats your boat.

I’ll cut any ‘suspect’ billets off a saddle, sell it, and never give it another thought.

[csaper58]

@StarPattern

If it was my saddle, I’d take it to a saddler and have them inspect it and tell me if the tree was safe. If the tree was sound, I’d list it for a couple hundred dollars and note in big bold letters that the billets need to be redone. When you sell the saddle and ship it, make sure to write on the invoice in BIG BOLD LETTERS that the billets need to be replaced for the rider’s safety. Then you’ve done your due diligence and if the buyer is dumb enough to ignore all your warnings, they can’t come back and say they didn’t know because you wrote it right there.

I have one of the wonderful old heating pads that gets really hot. It is perfectly safe when used as directed.

In BIG BOLD LETTERS the old tag says " Do Not Use While Sleeping. Serious Burns Can Occur."

Sadly, so many people disregarded that warning, written in big bold red letters… and sued the manufacturer for their resulting injuries… that the heating pads sold today only get vaguely warm.

(((( Shrug ))))

I guess a seller just has to decide…

1. How much they trust the buyer to use good judgement and common sense.

2. How much they trust the buyer to completely accept any and all responsibility.

[StarPattern]

@csaper58

I have one of the wonderful old heating pads that gets really hot. It is perfectly safe when used as directed.

In BIG BOLD LETTERS the old tag says " Do Not Use While Sleeping. Serious Burns Can Occur."

Sadly, so many people disregarded that warning, written in big bold red letters… and sued the manufacturer for their resulting injuries… that the heating pads sold today only get vaguely warm.

(((( Shrug ))))

I guess a seller just has to decide…

1. How much they trust the buyer to use good judgement and common sense.

2. How much they trust the buyer to completely accept any and all responsibility.

Hair dryers have a warning that tells the user not to use while sleeping. I think at some point, we have to hope Darwinism kicks in because I can’t believe people could be THAT slow. I’m of the mind that it’s not my responsibility to babysit people. I can do my due diligence to ensure the inner workings of the saddle is safe and I can tell the buyer all shortcomings upfront… but if they’re dumb enough to ignore them… well, I feel sorry for them. And maybe it’s different in Canada, but most judges would throw that lawsuit out in court here. It would be a matter of “were you informed of the deficiencies? Did you still buy the item? Oh, there was another warning on the bill of sale AND invoice?” and then the buyer would likely end up having to pay all lawyer fees too because it’s a frivolous lawsuit. We don’t really have stuff like that happening in Canada.

That said, the owner of the saddle could also take the saddle in, get it inspected and get the billets repaired and factor that into the cost. When I got billets replaced on one of my old saddles, it cost me $25 per billet, dyed to match the saddle. And then that turns into a selling feature for said saddle. “Recently inspected and confirmed sound by X Saddler and new billets installed!”

[csaper58]

@StarPattern

Hair dryers have a warning that tells the user not to use while sleeping. I think at some point, we have to hope Darwinism kicks in because I can’t believe people could be THAT slow. I’m of the mind that it’s not my responsibility to babysit people. I can do my due diligence to ensure the inner workings of the saddle is safe and I can tell the buyer all shortcomings upfront… but if they’re dumb enough to ignore them… well, I feel sorry for them. And maybe it’s different in Canada, but most judges would throw that lawsuit out in court here. It would be a matter of “were you informed of the deficiencies? Did you still buy the item? Oh, there was another warning on the bill of sale AND invoice?” and then the buyer would likely end up having to pay all lawyer fees too because it’s a frivolous lawsuit. We don’t really have stuff like that happening in Canada.

That said, the owner of the saddle could also take the saddle in, get it inspected and get the billets repaired and factor that into the cost. When I got billets replaced on one of my old saddles, it cost me $25 per billet, dyed to match the saddle. And then that turns into a selling feature for said saddle. “Recently inspected and confirmed sound by X Saddler and new billets installed!”

In a perfect world the repair you suggest and the cost added to the saddle price make sense.

But in the real world not all saddles are worth that investment, but they are still worth a few bucks.

Cutting the billets lets the owner sell the saddle with a clear conscience, and makes damn sure no one will ride it.

I think you are just a little naive about law suits, but that is within your rights.

[StarPattern]

@csaper58

I think you are just a little naive about law suits, but that is within your rights.

That’s entirely possible, but like I said… I’m from Canada and silly lawsuits just aren’t as common here. We have something called vexatious litigation, which basically prevents people from continually making silly or useless claims. Anyone is welcome to submit any claim they want, but it’s up to their lawyer to determine if it’s a valid claim or if it’ll even hold up in court. Lawyers who pursue frivolous claims can be held accountable for them, which means lawyers here are very unlikely to represent a client who is obviously in the wrong. Such a case would be something like this saddle debate - Seller sold a saddle, noted the deficiencies and advised the buyer that new billets would be required before riding for safety. Buyer ignored warning, used saddle and billet snapped resulting in a wreck. Buyer tries to sue seller, explains situation and lawyer goes, “Uh, but you KNEW the billets were faulty and you still used it despite advice not to.”

Most lawyers would refuse to take on this case for the sole fact it would very likely fall within the umbrella of a vexatious lawsuit, which would essentially waste everyone’s time because the buyer was fully at fault for his or her wreck.

Here is an article from Toronto about a lawyer who is being held responsible for assisting his client in a frivolous lawsuit: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/06/21/lawyer-held-liable-for-legal-costs-of-frivolous-action.html

[csaper58]

@StarPattern

That’s entirely possible, but like I said… I’m from Canada and silly lawsuits just aren’t as common here. We have something called vexatious litigation, which basically prevents people from continually making silly or useless claims. Anyone is welcome to submit any claim they want, but it’s up to their lawyer to determine if it’s a valid claim or if it’ll even hold up in court. Lawyers who pursue frivolous claims can be held accountable for them, which means lawyers here are very unlikely to represent a client who is obviously in the wrong. Such a case would be something like this saddle debate - Seller sold a saddle, noted the deficiencies and advised the buyer that new billets would be required before riding for safety. Buyer ignored warning, used saddle and billet snapped resulting in a wreck. Buyer tries to sue seller, explains situation and lawyer goes, “Uh, but you KNEW the billets were faulty and you still used it despite advice not to.”

Most lawyers would refuse to take on this case for the sole fact it would very likely fall within the umbrella of a vexatious lawsuit, which would essentially waste everyone’s time because the buyer was fully at fault for his or her wreck.

Here is an article from Toronto about a lawyer who is being held responsible for assisting his client in a frivolous lawsuit: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/06/21/lawyer-held-liable-for-legal-costs-of-frivolous-action.html

Like I said, your personal interpretation of legal definitions may be naive.