What’s the purpose of a pro-ride?

[lenapesadie]

I’ve had 3 different pros ride my horse and a 4th pro helped me with some lunging issues prior to starting horse under saddle. I felt each one gave me and my horse very valuable information. We all worked as a team to further mine and the horse’s education.

If I felt I wasn’t getting good value, I’d not be having that pro ride my horse.

I’m a bit concerned that you’ve asked to skip the pro rides and they’ve been done anyways. Everyone and every program is different of course, but that wouldn’t fly with me. As long as it’s my horse and I’m footing the bill, I’m calling the shots.

[AAHunterGal]

Pro rides, for me, are meant to:

1. Give me another perspective on my horse - I want my trainer to always tell me how it went after the ride.
2. Allow my trainer to “feel” what they’re seeing from the ground during lessons and have more insight into my horse.
3. Give my horse the experience of multiple riders.
4. Allow someone else to fill in gaps (I for example, am not great at installing lead changes - happy to have the pro do that.)

If the above things aren’t happening, then pro rides aren’t worth it to me. So having someone else ride than is giving lessons wouldn’t work for me UNLESS it’s a program where the pro rider rides under the eye of the trainer and/or has been with said trainer for a long time (there are a lot of places where the person who rides/shows isn’t the trainer, but they work together beautifully).

For me, I like my pro ride early in the week, so that the pro can more easily ride through any freshness from time off and I myself get an easier horse to deal with.

From your schedule, it seems like it’s pretty packed - maybe your horse is just really tired by the end of the week after you riding for three days, then two pro rides (who often “work” a horse more than I would), THEN a lesson? Is your schedule dictating this cadence / could your horse get another day off instead of the second ride?

This would be a new potential schedule to try:

Monday - off
Tuesday - Pro ride
Wednesday - Flat lesson with cavaletti
Thursday - Flat
Friday - Off or trail ride / property walkabout
Saturday - Pro ride
Sunday - Jump lesson

Would that be doable?

[Janet]

@PennyPony425

The professional has good rides, and then I get on the day after and have the worst ride of the week. It’s like we take 10 steps backwards. Shouldn’t the professional be having difficult rides?
…
. I’ve been working on collection and respect of a half halt and my seat and he is unbelievably fussy, heavy, and sensitive in his mouth after she has ridden him. If he has less rides with her, he is typically better for me.

I am confused at how a horse is both “heavy and sensitive in his mouth”. Those sound like opposites to me

it’s getting to the point where I’m considering selling him.

I’d consider cancelling the “pro rides”, or, if the trainer won’t agree, changing trainers before I would consider selling the horse.

Anytime I have ever been sent a video I have hated what I saw. Recently a trot with him flinging his head up and down, maybe it was bugs touching his nose? And swapping behind in downward transitions.

That doesn’t sound to me like “the professional has good rides”.

[ThreeWishes]

When I first bought my horse he was in a program with 2 pro rides per week. The pro was a lovely rider who could make a giraffe look like an Olympic contender, so I had full faith in her abilities and appreciated how she trained my horse. What really worked for us is that we made the pro rides into what we called half and halfs. She rode for 30 minutes while I watched and then I got on rode for the final 30 minutes. This worked so well because I could watch her and understand what she was trying to accomplish and then was able to attempt the same. It also worked because I had faith and respect for her talent / abilities. Kept us on the same page. It sounds like you don’t have the same faith in your pro. It also worked because the pro was my coach and the person who I did individual lessons with. Perhaps you need to find a pro who you take lessons with and also is able to ride ?

[BeeHoney]

In the context as you describe it, those pro rides should definitely be centered on making the horse MORE, not less rideable and enjoyable for you. Based on your description of how the horse goes, the short answer is to figure out a better weekly regimen for your horse that does not include this professional. The pro rides should come from a different professional or depending on your barn’s policies, a trainers assistant or another amateur rider.

There are a number of reasons why your horse might go worse for you after the pro has ridden them: 1) The pro rides well but in a very different style from you. 2) The pro is riding the horse too hard and the horse is tired or cranky then for when you ride it–some horses perform optimally with more hacking days or rest days. 3) The pro is using a piece of tack or equipment that doesn’t fit well and that is leaving residual discomfort 4) the trainer is not actually a good rider/trainer or their riding style is not a good match for your horse. 5) Someone other than the pro is riding the horse (i.e. pro teaches a student a lesson on the horse, not riding it themselves).

[mfglickman]

Seems the pro is a relative newcomer to your horse; you didn’t have her when you were seeking a new bit in early March. Maybe you, she, and the trainer need a meeting to talk about your goals and what their plan is to get you closer to them?

Bit for a tricky mare

Hoping for some bit recommendations for my horse. It seems I might be looking for a unicorn bit… I need something to encourage softness but I still need control as our current issue at the canter is that she will grab the bit and build, and in certain bits she will ignore a half-halt and I can’t get her back easily. She tends to canter with her mouth wide open if I use too much hand (physical causes ruled out) and the more I pull the more unhappy her mouth gets. Leverage bits make her curl behin…

https://forum.chronofhorse.com/t/bit-for-a-tricky-mare/770046

[candyappy]

@PennyPony425

Unfortunately I work long days when he gets his pro rides. Anytime I have ever been sent a video I have hated what I saw. Recently a trot with him flinging his head up and down, maybe it was bugs touching his nose? And swapping behind in downward transitions.

Sounds like it is the “supposed” pro that is the problem.

They may be a decent enough rider to be called a pro but that doesn’t mean they can be a good choice for every single horse they ride.

Take the pro off immediately . Why can’t your trainer ride him instead?

ETA: I see your trainer is currently not able to ride. Can she find someone else until she can?

[BigMama1]

I would start with changing the pro before changing horses. And I would aim to have the same pro teaching you and doing training rides.

[showy]

I haven’t read all the responses but if your horse isn’t going better for you after these “pro rides” stop paying for them.

[js]

Firstly, since the pro is using a different saddle and bridle/bit, that would be the first place I would make sure your tack is fitting correctly and that isn’t the issue.

Find a pro/instructor that can ride your horse and give you lessons. It sounds like your horse knows what he needs to do but gets confused when you ride. As someone that had a horse that knew his job I needed to refine my skills to ride him correctly. Work on you and your skills/feel, this may take more then just one lesson a week. While you could be over horsed at the moment that doesn’t mean you can’t learn to ride him you just need to find the right person to help you get there.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

Voice of reason here:

It might be you… it might be the pro… but the bottom line is that the point is not to make Dobbin into an Olympic athlete… the point is so that you can enjoy the horse. If you’re not having fun and feel like things are just worse every time you’re on them after pro rides, it’s time to try a different program. End the relationship amicably and you may find that it’s something totally different and not the pro (maybe it’s ulcers, maybe it’s teeth, maybe it’s tack)… and once that’s addressed, you might come back. You might not because you might find that horse goes better in a different program. You might even find out that the horse isn’t a good fit for you and needs to find a new home. So many options, but bottom line, you’re footing the bill and not having fun. Take it from me, that’s no way to live and it will just drive you crazy. The job is to set the horse up for you… if it’s becoming increasingly frustrating and no fun… then it’s time to change the setting.

[Equisis]

The “point” of pro rides is many- to make a more rideable horse for you, to fill in gaps in training, to gain insight into training issues, etc. If they’re not working for you, you can choose to investigate further (maybe horse is getting tired/sore, maybe he is getting a little too tuned up and is frustrated with the change in riders, maybe pro does a terrible job, etc) or you can just terminate the rides. Without us being able to see, no one can really give you more insight than that.

I would strongly suggest that going forward, you try to get your pro rides and lessons from the same trainer. As a trainer, it is frustrating for me to be doing one or the other, but not both. I have had horses on my training ride schedule that I feel are being set up for failure because the lesson instructor doesn’t have the same insight into the horse and is instructing the owner in a way that I know doesn’t work for the horse. I have also been frustrated teaching a rider on a horse who is getting rides that make the horse MORE difficult for the rider, because the other trainer isn’t familiar with the rider and doesn’t understand what they need. This is a less than ideal situation for ALL of you- you, the horse, and both pros- and if you really need the pro rides, I would consider finding an instructor who can also do them for you.

[findeight]

If you have asked teaching trainer to give the horse the day off and she has the other Pro ride him anyway? Why do you allow that?

It could be horse is tired, sour, needs a vet workup, equipment does not fit. But why do you need to tell the trainer? Problem solving is part of their job description, they should be telling you? And why did you have to post on here horse was pulling you and you needed a different bit? That is why you are paying a Pro.

It could be you, why doesn’t teaching trainer work with you on these problems? Maybe its the wrong horse for you, why has trainer not suggested this to you? Or are they more interested in the continued income stream you provide? Did this trainer sell you this horse?

Thing that bothers me most is that horse is running out and stopping with you? When (not if) you come off, you will likely be moving with some speed and end up hitting part of the fence. You could get hurt and trainer really ought not to have you jumping that horse right now. You cant miss work for avoidable injury.

There may be more to this story and we dont have trainers side. But, based on what has been shared on here, this is not the right training program for this OP and this horse at this time.

JMIO based on what has been shared, horse is working too hard too many days a week every week and needs some rest, a vet visit and likely routine maintenance to deal with age/mileage related arthritic changes in joints and possibly back. Has trainer discussed these possibilities?

One other quick thought. The behavior you have described here and on the earlier thread about the bit? Its consistent with pain related behavior which would get worse with a heavier work schedule as he is in now on. He’s trying to tell you something, listen. And, no, he wont try to tell the Pro rider because he fears discipline more then the pain.

Give it some thought. And get him off that schedule,

[RedHorses]

1. You don’t like what you have seen of the pro’s rides on your horse, and haven’t seen enough to know if the reported “good ride” actually was a good ride.

2. You don’t like the methods the pro teaches their students.

3. You have bad rides after the pro has ridden your horse.

4. The less the pro rides your horse the better your own rides are.

To me this adds up to - Get this pro out of your horse’s life. Give it a couple of weeks and then decide if anything else (like vet work ups, saddle fitting) is necessary.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

That thread is about a mare, and this thread is about a gelding, so a different horse?

[IPEsq]

It sounds like this program isn’t working for your horse. And this horse also may not be the horse for you. Seems like he’s either too green or too hot blooded or both for your comfort. The top green part could be fixed with pro rides from the right person, but it sounds like his nature also doesn’t work well for you.

If you want to keep him, I’d stop these pro rides and discuss with your trainer about changing the program. If not amenable, you might have to move to a different program. If you don’t want to keep this horse, it seems it would be better to send him out to a different pro for sale. And have a real discussion with your trainer about the horse you actually need and what that might look like with your budget. If they keep matching you with too hot, unsuitable horses, you’ve got to move on to someone that is a better fit for you.

[PennyPony425]

I do have multiple horses. Thanks for noticing that! They are however all UTD on routine maintenance. I am looking into chiropractic and saddle fitting for this one given the very different rides he gets.

[PennyPony425]

I have a friend who I am trying to figure out when I can have her here to do the pro rides instead. She rides him occasionally when I’m away and he’s always better after she rides him!

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I still think the problem is you need to see how the pro is riding the horse to understand what’s going wrong, exactly. Arrange the pro to ride one last time on a day you can watch. I agree this person probably needs to be fired, but I also think it’s helpful moving forward to understand what the issue might be.

I also agree that saddle fit might be an issue–there’s a lot of different moving parts to this relationship. You’re riding the horse alone, with a trainer, and then a pro is riding with his/her own saddle and you don’t watch those rides.

I’ll also throw in, since a number of people have said that the pro isn’t sharpening up the horse for your style–the pro, since this isn’t your trainer, might not know your needs and skill set, since she hasn’t seen you ride or your lessons.

There are many opportunities for miscommunication, given everyone is riding this horse or offering feedback without seeing how this relatively green horse is being trained by others.

[Pally]

I basically agree with everyone else here that it’s hard for us strangers on the bb to tell you exactly why your pro rides aren’t working, but they clearly aren’t.

I just want to add one more possibility to the table about potential physical aspects (in addition to tack fit and doing too much, which have already been mentioned) based on some personal experience.

When I groomed, one winter the barn had a young horse who was mainly mine to ride, but a pro did all his jumping and an occasional flat school, though usually they just hopped on after I had flatted or had a nice long hack from farm to show. I loved the horse and was super grateful for the opportunity, but he did often make me feel extra-mediocre in my riding. He could be a little fresh, but mostly just was a big lanky baby I struggled to balance. I learned lots of warm-up and stretchy trotting improved my chances for eventually having success at the balancing, half halts, and a manageable canter.

After returning north in spring, horse went to pro’s facility full time for about a month, then back to our barn. I went to groom and tack up for the first time, and was shocked to find how sensitive he was over his back. The pro’s saddle wasn’t new to him, and didn’t appear to be horribly off in fit (to this layperson’s eye). The next week we went to a show. I tacked up and handwalked him the 300 yards to the ring. Pro gets on, trots a couple of laps, picks up a canter. Does a bit, jumps a warm-up fence, then goes in the ring to school. Comes out, hops off. It’s all over in 15 or 20 minutes, and it suddenly dawned on me… if all the rides in the past month have been remotely like this, then the horse is probably sore from lack of warm-up and cool-down.

Now, without a doubt the pro was a way stronger rider than me. So, not only could they generally get more out of the horse, but they could get it done a lot more efficiently than me. And yet, even if this work is technically correct and should build the horse up, done too much + too fast, it can really be a net detriment physically.

Looking around now, I see this is a pretty common thing. Pros can get on and get a horse going a certain way quickly, and often don’t think about whether they should. Often it’s because they are super busy… a long ride list at home, or juggling a string and multiple rings at the show. Sometimes it’s just because their personality is super driven and focused, so they ride that way too – the same traits that make them good in the show ring make it hard for them to toodle around on a long rein. Owners tend to naturally take things slower and take more breaks if left to their own devices… sometimes that’s not a bad thing. In fact, I would say the ws/groom/fellow-client rides (that often get lambasted on this board) can provide a much needed balance between true pro rides for a horse in a full-time program (of course, only with full disclosure, approval, and appropriate billing to the client).

Anyway, that turned into another of my long rambles. But my conclusion is the same as most of the other posts on this thread… if you want to know for sure why it’s not working, you’re going to actually have to watch the pro ride. If you just want to stop being frustrated and accept it’s not working, then move on.