Wow! Do you lose trust in a vet if he bleeds a horse while tubing him?
[QUOTE=eruss;7804580]
For those who think leaving an old nail, which broke off in the hoof, will cause an abscess. Can you explain how this is possible?[/QUOTE]
I can’t speak for everyone, but when I mentioned the possibility of an abscess I was referring to the initial nail that when removed led to some relief. That leads me to believe that on top of the short trim, that nail was causing problems. I wouldn’t really worry about the broken nail, although there is always the possibility that it could migrate.
[QUOTE=eruss;7804677]
Wow! Do you lose trust in a vet if he bleeds a horse while tubing him?[/QUOTE]
I think I would be very cautious for sure. I suppose it would depend on the OP and since this was a new farrier doesn’t know him. And if she knows the vet and has a history that may make the difference.
Possibly get another farriers opinion. IMHO It is hard to trust someone you just met sored your horse, did an uneven trim and possibly hot nail.
[QUOTE=eruss;7804561]
For those in favor of barefoot, when a barefoot horse goes sore from having short feet, most people seem to recommend shoes. When a Farrier trims one short, why do people recommend barefoot?
The horse will get better regardless. Just wondering why.[/QUOTE]
I think the below is a good protocol… including the advice of the use of a boot.
I thought Shammy Davis’ entire post was a good one.
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IMO, soaking is the wrong thing to do. You want his soles to toughen up. Soaking will just make them soft. Unless there is a real abscess I don’t know what your vet is thinking.
It’s always a good idea to have a pair of hoof boots in your tack box for things like this and to temporarily replace a lost shoe. I consider them an essential piece of equipment.
If this was my horse I’d pack his feet with Magic Cushion (most tack shops carry this) and either bandage or boot him for a couple of weeks while you look around for another farrier. The current guy sounds like a real doozy.
[QUOTE=doublesstable;7804788]
I think the below is a good protocol… including the advice of the use of a boot.
I thought Shammy Davis’ entire post was a good one.[/QUOTE]
I hope not everyone believes nailing a shoe on a short foot requires any trimming or pairing of anything. It’s just not true.
[QUOTE=rcloisonne;7804789]
IMO, soaking is the wrong thing to do. [/QUOTE]
In the case of a short foot ice water is very good for pain relief. It lowers the rate at which nerves send electrical signals.
With the close nail, Epson salts aren’t bad because bacteria don’t like salt. Plus the salt should counteract the negative effects of soaking by sucking the moisture out of the foot after soaking is done.
Most of the time, once the pain is gone the horse can go back to whatever it usually does without having lameness return. So in the case of a sore foot I don’t think soaking is a bad idea.
OP, since you mentioned you’re new to the Wonderful World Of Abscesses: if you don’t have a Davis Boot, and if your horse isn’t fond of standing in a bucket, pick up some heavy-duty 2gallon freezer bags. Put one bag inside another so it’s doubled up, slip over the cleaned hoof, then fill about 1/3 with your warm water/Epsom solution–just enough so that the whole hoof and coronary band is submerged. Duct tape snug but not tight around the pastern and just above the fetlock. IME, the horse may pick his foot up once or twice, realize this thing is not going anywhere, and then just stand there.
The bags will last longer if you stand him on bedding or some other forgiving surface. Others here have recommended using IV bags, much more durable (but I don’t have ready access to IV bags).
The vet is evidently in the same camp as myself and GoodTimes, he believes the first nail is the offending nail which will cause an abscess (otherwise, why bother with the recommended advice he has given?).
If there were no worry of an abscess, I would boot the horse with Cavallo boots and keep him on turnout until his sole thickens. I would also paint the hoof (not the frog or bars, just sole) with turpentine to strengthen as well.
The reason I would advise against shoes w/ pads is that if there is an abscess, the pads will hide it and you will have to pull the shoes. Also, to put new shoes on will require MORE nail holes, and the horse will be incredibly uncomfortable with even the slightest whack of a hammer on painfully thin soles/sore hooves.
I have been constantly learning about hooves since I was young, and I have seen MANY an abscess from a slipped nail, many bruised soles from over-paring and general gait abnormalities caused by awful farriers. I certainly wouldn’t be asking this farrier his advice! Ask the vet to recommend a good farrier for when your horse can finally have shoes again. Until then, go easy on the horse, soak/wrap/repeat, and no bute!
Final advice: A good farrier takes off a little less hoof if they don’t know the horse, not the other way around.
Without seeing any pictures, I’d say you should probably trust your vet in this situation because he/she did see the horse. However, if the farrier had been widely respected and recommended, I wouldn’t necessarily presume to completely distrust him, especially depending on your vet’s experience. (E.g. I would trust the opinion of a respected farrier with 30 years of experience over a young vet 2 years out of school). But since we don’t know the qualifications of either…we’ll have to assume the farrier did, in fact, do a bad job.
There is nothing wrong with just wrapping your horse’s feet and waiting this out; or putting it in boots. Maybe you will encounter an abscess…again, nothing life-threatening.
If this had been my farrier, and it was determined that the horse was lame in both feet (so, not just a hot nail), I would have expected him to pull both shoes, pack them and pad them (with Styrofoam, or with a leather pad, for example) and wrap them for me (he is much better at it than me). Did the farrier offer to do that?
I only have one horse in shoes, but she needs them. So, if the vet pulled them both and walked her on my stone dust driveway, she would most certainly appear lame. So if your horse normally goes in shoes, it really would be necessary to put it in boots now (or be very vigilant about wrapping and packing).
What are your other options for farriers? If your horse needs shoes, you need to find someone who can put them on safely and effectively…no matter how nice it would be to have your horse barefoot. (And, in my experience, my shod horse grows feet just as fast as my barefoot ones. If not, I’d be thrilled to get a few more weeks out of my shoeing than I currently get.)
If you don’t have better options for a farrier than this one; I’d consider getting both the vet and the farrier together to discuss the horse. (My farrier, for example, would be really angry that a vet was telling a client that the trim was bad without being able to explain his theory, or in fact, to explain why the trim wasn’t the reason for lameness at all…etc. etc.). Then again, I think my farrier is good…maybe yours was not.
Follow your vet’s advice. Don’t use this farrier again.
I just went through a serious farrier disaster … the farrier actually pretty much said my vet didn’t have a clue.
Since you are new to abscesses, here’s a hint.
If you don’t have boots and aren’t going to try to get some or be able to get them in time? Disposable diapers are easily available and you can fashion booties for him. Just pack the foot if desired, fold the diaper to fit the bottom of the hoof, duct tape it on and finish with vet wrap. Gives a nice cushion and stays on pretty well, it will wear thru on hard ground but lasts well if stalled. Change daily.
The duct tape will leave an adhesive residue but that wears off pretty quick. I had a terrible time with abcesses for a year with a new horse, got really good at making booties, even got silly and got pastel vet wrap. I soaked in warm water with Epsom salts, let dry then packed with Icthammol (sp?) and wrapped…then went home and used the rest of the Epsom salts in my own bath:D.
Usually clears in in anything from 3 to 5 days but often comes back because it didn’t completly clear. And this also works for bruises or foot soreness.
If there is a possibility of an abscess I would not put shoes & pads on right away. If your horse starts to abscess you don’t want to pull the shoes again!
What I would do is pack with Magic Cushion and use a hoof boot to offer some padding. You an also buy pads to put in hoof boots, which can provide cushioning while your horse is sore.
I’ve had good success with Cavallo Simple boots but a lot depends on the shape of your horse’s feet.
I had a horse who pulled a shoe out hunting and lost too much hoof wall for a conventional shoe to be nailed back on. I didn’t want to go with glue-ons or pads until I was sure he wouldn’t abscess from the bruising, and I did the Magic Cushion/Hoof Boot routine. Worked a charm. I ended up pulling all his shoes and let the nail holes grow out over the winter. And, no, in the end my horse did not abscess. And yes, I was able to ride him with the boots.
[QUOTE=eruss;7804870]
I hope not everyone believes nailing a shoe on a short foot requires any trimming or pairing of anything. It’s just not true.[/QUOTE]
I was reading the need for a trim as a response to the vet saying the trim was uneven. Therefore the trim might need to be corrected to put shoes back on.
Or maybe you have to go with what is already there, even if uneven, until there is enough hoof growth to fix it.
To answer you other question about dumping a vet because a horse bled after he tubed it. No, I would not. I know that bleeding after a tubing is not uncommon, especially when having to repeatly tube for a choke. The edges of the tube will sometime scrap the lining of the esophagus causing a little bleeding.
I would not necessarily dump a farrier for one bad thing, especially if I have a good history. But when he 1.) hot nailed the horse, 2) unevenly trimmed the horse, 3) left part of an old nail in under the show and 4) short shod the horse all of the first time I have ever used him why would I have any reason to let him try again? Everybody makes mistakes. 4 mistakes on the same horse, on the same shoe job makes me think hurried and sloppy. Not somebody I want working on my horse, especially when I have no history with the farrier to make me think that this is an anomaly.
[QUOTE=SonnysMom;7805776]
I was reading the need for a trim as a response to the vet saying the trim was uneven. Therefore the trim might need to be corrected to put shoes back on. [/QUOTE]
How far out of balance can a horse trimmed that short really be?
My horse was trimmed too short on both hinds a few years ago. (Barefoot transition gone wrong.) Had vet come out and he said get pads on ASAP. New farrier got shoes and pads on successfully - not an easy job with a sore horse. Farrier was very patient and kind - needless to say, he gained a new client that day. Still my farrier 4 years later.
Does anyone see a trend?
Horse owners keeps responding with success and failure stories of Farriers and short feet. Success and failure seems dependant on the Farrier yet everyone thinks the vet knows best. Why are there no stories of the vet fixing the lame, foot sore, horse? Why no stories of the vet giving bad advice and the horse being lame for an overly extended time?
If vets know something about feet, why do they take twice as long to get a horse sound as a good Farrier?
Maybe the guy who crippled this horse was the worst Farrier in the history of Farriers. The vet says this horse will take a minimum of 10 days and possibly more to get him comfortable and that’s acceptable?
[QUOTE=eruss;7806896]
Does anyone see a trend?
Horse owners keeps responding with success and failure stories of Farriers and short feet. Success and failure seems dependent on the Farrier yet everyone thinks the vet knows best. Why are there no stories of the vet fixing the lame, foot sore, horse? Why no stories of the vet giving bad advice and the horse being lame for an overly extended time? [/QUOTE]
There are plenty of both types of stories. Vet fixing and vet ruining.
But you probably aren’t looking at these thread since you seem pretty focused on ‘‘farrier’’ threads…
If vets know something about feet, why do they take twice as long to get a horse sound as a good Farrier?
Are you out of your mind?
Maybe the guy who crippled this horse was the worst Farrier in the history of Farriers. The vet says this horse will take a minimum of 10 days and possibly more to get him comfortable and that’s acceptable?
Not the vet’s fault if the horse is crippled… the vet gave advice on how to proceed in order to reduce the pain. Nothing much can be done.
Hooves are too short, there is pain with or without shoes. Are farriers some sort of magician who can majikaly remove the pain? Drugs on the other hand…(provided by …the vet!!!)
I don’t understand why you are being so sensitive about this particular case. Is this farrier your friend or what? For what we know, he might not even be certified…
I don’t have quite the faith in my veterinarian’s knowledge of hooves that everyone else seems to have. Nor is it common to trim a horse too short prior to shoeing. It should be short. The hoof wall is taken down to the level of live sole. Unless the sole itself was pared down too far, but it’s easy to determine live sole vs dead sole unless there are other pathologies. The hot nail would not overly concern me… It happens sometimes. Shouldn’t be frequent but it isn’t always obvious. … But leaving an old nail? That’s odd. How the heck did he get the shoe off and leave a nail behind??
[QUOTE=eruss;7806896]
Does anyone see a trend?
Horse owners keeps responding with success and failure stories of Farriers and short feet. Success and failure seems dependant on the Farrier yet everyone thinks the vet knows best. Why are there no stories of the vet fixing the lame, foot sore, horse? Why no stories of the vet giving bad advice and the horse being lame for an overly extended time?
If vets know something about feet, why do they take twice as long to get a horse sound as a good Farrier?
Maybe the guy who crippled this horse was the worst Farrier in the history of Farriers. The vet says this horse will take a minimum of 10 days and possibly more to get him comfortable and that’s acceptable?[/QUOTE]
Success of the vet vs. farrier depends on the vet, the farrier and the situation.
I would not give a blanket statement like the one above. I’d be pretty ticked off at the farrier described in the situation above. Not all vets are up to speed on shoeing issues and not all farriers are knowledgeable. I’ve seen plenty of horses develop problems because of bad shoeing!
My vet is very knowledgeable about feet; my farrier is also very good. They work together when there is a problem.
