What to do for IBD-like issues? Update, better then getting worse again

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=Jungle Monkey;8900462]
Have you talked about mild tying up issues?[/QUOTE]

We did some testing for that kind of thing a year and a half ago when he first started showing poor behavior. Vet wrote that off pretty quickly and then we pursued gastric scope (and subsequent ulcer treatment) and then the neck diagnostics.

Despite the persistent lumbo-sacral soreness, he doesn’t really show any symptoms of tying up. He doesn’t sweat abnormally, is really difficult to get him breathing hard/heart rate up (and he has excellent recovery time), and muscularly he feels much looser after exercise, particularly judging ROM of hind limbs. His attitude is also much better after exercise, even if getting him to exercise is a fight.

I have discovered that his hate of the flick brush is due to static electricity. If I use a dryer sheet to wipe the brush after every few strokes, he could not care less about being brushed. Usually he hates it. I can curry him all day…in fact, he wishes I would!

[Bem55]

Sounds like you are having a tough time, not sure how helpful this is but I have a horse who struggles with ulcers. He would get really bloated looking - he filled up at the end of his stomach through his flanks sometimes. I’m not really certain what caused it, however I found that KER - Equisure helped as I believe it was a hindgut issue. However, he would still get ulcers so he would also have to be on something for the stomach as well as hindgut. One or the other did not work. He would also colic regularly - mostly gas / spasmodic colic. I am in NZ, but we have a fantastic product called Ulzeraide, it is herbal based and contains - Humic Acid, Orego-Stim, Levucell SB,(Saccharomyces boulardii which is a Specific Live Yeast Strain Probiotic), Fenugreek, Aloe, Zeolite, Ginger, Vitamin C and Organic Coconut Oil. It has been an absolute godsend - you have so many more options than we do, I am sure that you would have something similar. I found the herbal stuff has worked really well.

Have you tried soaking the hay to make it digested easier and to reduce the sugar content? Could be worth a try. Beet is also good for the hindgut, I would keep that up. Sorry I am not familiar with the products you have, but what about a grainfree low starch,sugar diet and low protein diet?
I am not a fan of the charcoal products, I believe they wipe everything out of the system - including the good bacteria.

Also was recently told to give my horse people probio’s, dissolve them in water and then syringe into her 2x a day for 4 days.
Best of luck, they can be so frustrating!

ETA: Eating the other horses poo is a definite sign of something up in the stomach. I would let him do it, even give him some of the poo in his stable (I know it is gross) - I have a friend who has a grass affected horse, the horse at the paddock mates poop and so far she swears that is why she is not having trouble this year with the grass. Worth a try

[Xanthoria]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8900402]
The HorseTech supplement he gets has 5g of Magnesium. How much is in MagRestore? I only see it listed as a % and don’t see how many grams are in a scoop. [/QUOTE]

My custom HorseTech supp has 20g elemental Mg in it.

However, that’s Mag oxide. MagRestore is di-mag malate. This explains the difference: http://www.paleohacks.com/magnesium/help-me-figure-out-magnesium-how-to-calculate-elemental-magnesium-17726

I had a horse who displayed zero difference on mag ox in quadruple the recommended doses, but was HUGELY improved on a double dose of MagRestore.

My current horse seems helped by mag ox. You have to play around with it, but if I had a problem horse I’d start with a $20 bag of MagRestore so you can play around with the levels and see if it makes a diff. You’ll know in 4-5 days if it’s helping.

Call Performance Equine - really nice people.

[knic13]

It has been mentioned several times upthread but I would also recommend removal of beet pulp. Beet pulp is high in soluble fiber, which is largely indigestible to mammalian enzymes resulting in hindgut fermentation. While maximizing hindgut fermentation is generally ideal in horses, it is what they are evolutionary designed to do, in a horse with overactive hindgut issues as described it would
Be worthwhile to reduce fermentation in the hindgut to see if symptoms improve.

And since I am so on the theme of things you don’t want to hear…have you considered scaling back or stopping training while sorting out these issues? The rides you’ve described have sounded miserable for both horse and rider and also not especially productive in the long run.

I have a young ottb who has had several health set backs which were finally resolved and then had an ulcer flare up this fall. It is frustrating to miss ride time at this point but I’ve decided to hold off until his symptoms have completely resolved because I hate to sour a good minded horse by forcing him to work in discomfort.

I’ve followed some of your previous threads on this horse and I’m very sympathletic and commend you for the lengths you have gone to for this horse.

[IPEsq]

I have considered not riding for a while. Tonight we did a lot of walking. We trotted some when he felt like it, which wasn’t very much. I didn’t want to pick a fight again. But he gets kind of batty without a job. We did a fair amount of stuff at the walk, and he was mentally challenged and into it. He acts like he really wants to try but he doesn’t feel good.

I am considering cutting down on beet pulp even though there’s conflicting info. I am trying to do one thing at a time and give each change at least a week. He has been on this diet for a year. The MSM for 5 months. The other things in his HT supp he used to get separately (fat, the vitamins and minerals including Magnesium via being on Vita Calm). I just don’t understand why he feels so bad now. I do think I’ll try stopping the soy and the MSM before the beet pulp. I mean, he has eaten a lot of beet pulp for nearly 2 years without this kind of problem.

His behavior is escalating some. And he did he double pee again tonight and wanted to kick me when I put the girth on, so I’m going to call the vet again and ask them to just come do an exam and test for whatever they want to test for. Blood, fecal, rectal, ultrasound. If we can’t find anything internal and the next diet changes also don’t help, I may just inject the SI and see what happens. I read and old thread on SI symptoms and injections and except for the gas noise, a lot of the symptoms overlap, and the vets already suspect an SI issue.

I could not release his psoas area on the right side tonight…he tried to eat me even just resting my hand on his pelvis. But a lot of other back, belly and croup massaging he could not get enough of.

Another question …could his steroid injections in September have set something off? If so, what? (And if so, then injecting the SI may not be a good idea!). He was on GG at that time and for a few weeks after.

He is being pretty clear that something is not right. I just have to get to the bottom of it.

[starsandsun]

I don’t have anything to add other than, kudos to you for putting your horse’s well being at such a high priority, and being so willing to keep working through this to get to where you know what is going on. Hope you find the answer soon…

[IPEsq]

Vet is going to listen to his belly and take blood for general chemistry panel today to start.

It will be a warm weekend (maybe the last one?), so the plan for the weekend right now is farrier, bodywork (getting him some e-stim), and if he’s not a piss on the ground, maybe hunting out the last blades of fresh grass on the property. We need rain so badly! Maybe a walking trail ride if he seems happy.

[Xanthoria]

Just got this in my email: free shipping from Performance Equine today only:

[TABLE=“class: mcnTextContentContainer, width: 100%, align: left”]
[TR]
[TD=“class: mcnTextContent”]FREE SHIPPING FRIDAY
COUPON CODE: FREESHIPFRIDAY[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=Xanthoria;8901476]
Just got this in my email: free shipping from Performance Equine today only:

[TABLE=“class: mcnTextContentContainer, width: 100%, align: left”]
[TR]
[TD=“class: mcnTextContent”]FREE SHIPPING FRIDAY
COUPON CODE: FREESHIPFRIDAY[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE][/QUOTE]

Thank you. Vet is looking at him this afternoon and will order unless he says something that would make it not a good idea. My biggest worry with magnesium is giving him the runs considering how active his gut sounds are right now.

[Simkie]

Might be worthwhile to chat with the vet about a fecal transplant? Cheap and easy, and unlikely to hurt. Could help him along if he’s already eating manure.

[IPEsq]

Yes, I will ask about that as well. Although, he is only obsessed with the manure from that one horse. Other horses’ poop? He gives a little sniff and moves along. Not eating his own manure either.

I haven’t done the Quest yet either…local store was out, and they were supposed to call me yesterday about it. Going to swing by there today to see if they got it in before the vet appointment.

Given vet’s concerns about the peeing and kidneys, I think I’ll stop ranitidine tonight…just in case. I know FineAlready has commented to me in the past that the urination thing could be an early sign of impaction, so that has me freaking out anyway. Ranitidine does not seem to be helping at all yet, so probably won’t hurt to stop. I have a few tubes of UG left if he needs immediate antacid support. Ran out of RiteTrac because I moved him on to just Equishure while he was on GG.

[MontysGal]

Well I just read this entire thread and learned a lot about poop!

This may be too simplistic but I figured I’d ask:
Does he need to stop to poop if he’s on a lunge without tack? Perhaps there’s something that combines lifting the back with a saddle on to poop and his muscle soreness that makes it a literal pain in the ass for him?

Not exactly diagnostic but may be informative.

What happens if you lunge him down first before your ride and literally ‘lunge the poop out of him’ since you seem to know extremely well his timing and movements?

You’re doing everything right by this horse. He’s lucky to have you looking into all of this rather than writing him off as nappy and beating him.

[IPEsq]

He cannot poop and lunge, at least not in the past. He will stop. His lunge line behavior when he doesn’t feel well is atrocious. Like, rearing and striking out and spinning instead of moving. For those reasons, I don’t want to lunge him right now! I do have someone who is more of an expert in groundwork coming to work with him next week. It’s really too bad because when I got him, he was a dream to lunge. Didn’t need a whip. All voice commands. But then he got ulcery, and then the soft tissue at his poll got irritated because it turns out there’s some bony damage there, and then his neck hurt, and while I figured all that out, he learned to be a real stinker on the lunge.

Coming back from his last problem, he started back fine lunging at w/t, but he will still test everyone on the ground. Given that we were in rehab for a soft tissue injury, I did not lunge very much…just enough to make sure he was going to be safe enough to leg up, and because the rehab barn didn’t have someone else to ride him on days I couldn’t be there, so he got treadmill workouts and then lunging when allowed.

He’s not that pleased with me for even hand walking at the moment, which I have started doing again for around 10 minutes before I get on and tighten the girth.

[snowrider]

I still think you need to take the vets advice from much earlier in the thread and feed him hay and either nothing or a very bland feed for a while. You are throwing a LOT of feed additives at this horse, including MSM, beet pulp and PPIs, all of which are variously associated with malabsorptio/ hind gut issues. I don’t understand why you’re consulting so many people and taking a hodge podge approach, pick the likely beat vet and stick with their plans properly for a while

[keysfins]

Please don’t take this the wrong way— how is he if someone else is handling him or schooling? From ground behaviors and handling, to lunging, and mounted work, even if not “demanding”? Have you had another trainer work with him? I have read this thread and the long rehab thread, and I can’t remember ATM if you have tried having someone else work him. Apologies if you have and I just don’t recall the outcome.

[IPEsq]

That vet likes beet pulp and had suggested Omelene, which is not exactly bland. Vet was ok with PPI use as well. I told him today I was cutting back on the concentrate this week with plan to eliminate it next week. His words were “beet pulp is good.” I told min how long horse has been eating everything. I do plan to stop MSM but just want to do one thing at a time so I can identify what works. I’m not ignoring the advice.

Vet’s observations are he is sore over SI and has abnormal sounds from the cecum - hypermotile. Rest of gut sounds fine. Took blood and waiting for results. He didn’t think I should spend the money on a fecal panel right now.

He is the same on the lunge and under saddle for others. Just had a trainer ride him recently who is willing to work with him in the long term. Most won’t get on him at all. Some skilled professionals can work through the problems, but most cannot lunge him without it escalating to very bad. The last pro ride didn’t accomplish any more than I had gotten recently, but it was more of an evaluation not boot camp. We were going to try more of a boot camp approach, but I wanted to get the vet out again first. For leading he is fine for others even when he is grumpy for me. For me, his leading is only bad in bringing him into the barn/grooming area or walking to the arena (so, things associated with work), and only when we are having problems under saddle as well.

He is kind of a bully as far as ground manners go and is like this with everyone. That is improving since I got him but slowly.

Pending blood test, vet wants him on Bute for 3 days and me to try to work him to test for an inflammatory problem. We talked also about putting him back on Prozac or trying Gabapentin if we cannot find a clear medical problem to see if we can just calm down his overall sensitivity. He thinks the extra urination may be from pressure on the bladder from all the gas.

I dunno, maybe the horse is taking advantage me, but I haven’t been wrong yet when it’s been physical.

[IPEsq]

Also to clarify about the food changes…this horse is very picky, and while elimination of a lot of things at once is safer than adding several things at once, if I make too many changes to his food even in taking away things that he is used to having the flavor of, I will just get the look of, what is this poison you are serving me?

The simplest diet he has been on in the past was about 1 qt beet pulp, 3lbs TC Senior per feeding. He had hind gut/gas issues then and went on EquiShure after not living in CO very long. It did help at that time. After neck diagnosis, added Vitamin E. He was taken off TC Senior when he went on stall rest last year and was put on the RB.

I have dabbled in the other things such as aminos, fats, other vitamins and minerals due to specific issues including high iron in hay and some issues with his feet and coat, hard time putting weight/muscle on, body soreness. The farrier noted his feet have much improved since I scrapped the piecemeal approach and went with the HT blend, and it is simpler to feed, so that is why he’s on that. I introduced it slowly, and he did not appear to have issues for the first months. But, as I said before, I am ok with taking it away. It is the next thing on the list.

[Simkie]

Is the vet saying Omolene 200 and MEANING Omolene 400 or 500?

Because 200 sure doesn’t have beet pulp and sure isn’t a complete feed. But 400 and 500 would fit that bill more closely.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=Simkie;8902184]
Is the vet saying Omolene 200 and MEANING Omolene 400 or 500?

Because 200 sure doesn’t have beet pulp and sure isn’t a complete feed. But 400 and 500 would fit that bill more closely.[/QUOTE]

I am not sure…didn’t ask? I asked instead if I should go back to TC Senior because I know the horse eats it (and I like it), and he said he’d have to look at the ingredients. So, that conversation didn’t go very far. Today and earlier in the week, he said to keep the beet pulp he already gets, and to feed the Platinum products when they come in (took them all week to ship it so haven’t gotten it yet) and add a couple cups of something to mix it with if needed like Equine Senior (meaning Purina). That was in response to my asking if I should mix with a Timothy pellet instead of the alfalfa pellets I have on hand…but in any event, he is now kind of off of the give 6 lbs of feed recommendation since I am not having a trouble with weight at the moment.

He said that even if anything comes back as borderline on the bloodwork, they will not ignore it like they would for the average patient. They want him clearly within normal ranges on everything before ruling out an issue. We haven’t done a blood panel since March 2015 before we did the endoscope the first time (blood then showed protein levels consistent with possible ulcers). They will be looking at that again in the bloodwork plus kidney issues, muscle enzymes, liver. So…I’m just sitting here waiting for any red flags in that that would mean no to the instructions to do Bute trial.

[IPEsq]

Blood panel totally normal.