If you have something with a hard mouth right from the day it’s started, when do you bit them up a bit more to get some more control?
You don’t. You train them until they understand what you want. There is no reason an unstarted (ie, not recovering from poor training) horse can’t WTC and go over small jumps in anything other than a pretty straightforward bit. in the very beginning, assume mistakes are from them not understanding what you want.
Tough to answer without more info on the horse and rider experience. When I got my 5 yr old WB he had been ridden in the smaller hunter and jumpers (3’) with a young rider and was very green. He was really unresponsive to the hand. I started using the whoa word and releasing and praising the second he gave and I quite quickly got a much softer horse. I think biting up is totally reasonable if you have a very soft hand, solid seat, and horse that can do the job in a softer bit but can get a bit carried away at times and things could go bad fast (larger jumps, more technical questions, etc.). I tend to think of it as something to help curb a bit of over-eagerness on a made horse rather than mistakes in a young one. But…I ride the tiny stuff so others may be of more help.
[QUOTE=BostonHJ;8065150]
You don’t. You train them until they understand what you want. There is no reason an unstarted (ie, not recovering from poor training) horse can’t WTC and go over small jumps in anything other than a pretty straightforward bit. in the very beginning, assume mistakes are from them not understanding what you want.[/QUOTE]
Agreed! You could also assume mistakes may be from a young/immature horse lacking balance or strength (another major reason why horses get heavy/strong).
I agree entirely with BostonHJ. If you have not truly and fully achieved “free forward relaxed motion”, and are trying to jump, the rider is making a mistake. If a horse is rushing, tense, strong, too eager, step back and correct this with training, not “bitting him up”. Get that first step of the classical training pyramid installed, then move on to other things. Softness and response to cues is vital. Understanding of what “the game” is that we play with a horse when we ask him to be a jumper. Encouraging him to take a vital role in decision making to achieve that goal, while still listening to the human input. You don’t get that with “bitting him up” or by pulling on he reins.
You can not successfully jump a horse when fighting with him, pulling on the reins, or causing him pain or discomfort of any sort. He must go forward from your leg, onto a soft giving hand. The bit, and the many bits we may try with a horse to find the one that is effective is looking for something that is comfortable for him, that he accepts light pressure from without experiencing pain. A “hard mouth” is not a physical thing, it is a lack of training, or poor previous training. And putting a “tougher” or more “harsh” mouthpiece bit in the mouth as a tool to do this retraining with is a trap that only some riders fall into. Don’t be one of them. Not all ruined mouths can be retrained effectively by the rider/trainer who gets the job. Sometimes bits that are not harsh but act in a “different” manner from a regular snaffle may be found to be effective while still being “not harsh”. Bits like this may be a gag snaffle (with a regular soft snaffle mouthpiece), or Pelham of some sort. Neither of these types of bit is exactly a harsh bit in itself, but apply pressure that is different from that of a regular snaffle, which may be more effective on an individual horse. If one of these bits is used, the horse is relaxed, responsive and soft in it. The key is to not use the reins much as a rider, use the leg instead.
If, during the long lining stage of the horse’s starting process, it appears to not understand what is meant by the bit, then put it back on the longe line until it knows “WHOA.”
Then explain to the horse by combining the vocal cue “WHOA” with the aid from the long lines that pressure from the bit means “whoa.”
One can also practice things like applying pressure on the bit while standing next to the horse and asking it to bend left and right.
This knowledge can then be applied to long lining the horse nicely around the arena complete with brakes and steering, softly.
Then it won’t be hard in its mouth “from the day it’s started” anymore.
One can also, once one has started riding it, practice things like walk to halt and trot to walk to trot transitions so that they get progressively softer and lighter, and increasingly from the seat and less from the hand. It involves some boring and methodical work of riding around in circles and stopping or transitioning every 10-20 strides, waiting for the horse to give to the bridle and take a breath, patting and walking on again …all very boring I know.
OR
Just swing aboard and aim it at jumps.
Your call.
[QUOTE=iJump;8065144]
If you have something with a hard mouth right from the day it’s started, when do you bit them up a bit more to get some more control?[/QUOTE]
No, you go back and see what it missed in training and fix that. If you need more control on a young horse for jumping? You stop jumping and hit the flatwork. Most find Dressage lessons very helpful identifying and fixing this type problem.
BTW, there is no such thing as a hard mouth, they don’t grow callouses in their mouths. They do get confused and scared so pull and try to run off. They also may learn to ignore the rider that provides no guidance except yanking on their mouths. They have problems when something hurts them like yanking on the bit, saddle fit or sore back or hocks. They try to run away, that’s their instinct.
Try to understand why it’s behaving that way and change the cause, don’t just put a bigger bit on a young horse, it will make it worse.
I guess my question was kind of blanket.
Horse is ridden by pro, and is pretty respectful on the flat. Currently going in happy mouth.
I’m not talking about putting a Hickstead bit in it’s mouth, but I guess my question is more like… when do you start to play around with different bits?
[QUOTE=iJump;8067324]
I guess my question was kind of blanket.
Horse is ridden by pro, and is pretty respectful on the flat. Currently going in happy mouth.
I’m not talking about putting a Hickstead bit in it’s mouth, but I guess my question is more like… when do you start to play around with different bits?[/QUOTE]
I think you have gotten really good advice above. My opinion would be that the advice above still stands even after your additional post. You could apply this kind of thinking to poles and x-rails-- incorporate them into your flatwork. Trot an x-rail and then go back to w/t transitions. Canter a pole on a 20m circle. Do a little bit most rides, and reward when he gives you what you want. Do these types of very simple exercises until little jumps are no big deal and you have the control you want. Then the jumps can start getting a little bigger.
Make sure your saddle fits, as well. Sometimes a horse can put up with an ill-fitting saddle on the flat but will then start rushing (or doing some other “undesirable” behavior) over fences because the ill-fitting saddle hurts even more once you start jumping.
Also, if your horse is ridden by a pro, I would recommend talking to your pro about your questions before you start “bitting up” on your own. Most pros with young horses in programs prefer if owners don’t go changing up bits on those horses without discussing first.
[QUOTE=iJump;8065144]
If you have something with a hard mouth right from the day it’s started, when do you bit them up a bit more to get some more control?[/QUOTE]
Horses don’t start with hard mouths.
Riders give that to them.
Fix the mouth. Bits should be “aids” … not “quick fixes.”
[QUOTE=TwoSweetPeas;8067392]
Also, if your horse is ridden by a pro, I would recommend talking to your pro about your questions before you start “bitting up” on your own. Most pros with young horses in programs prefer if owners don’t go changing up bits on those horses without discussing first.[/QUOTE]
I haven’t even sat on this one yet, and I don’t make changes without discussing first but I wanted some feedback. I’m always curious of what other people do.
I find it interesting how many people think that some horses are not just strong/hard mouthed from the beginning. I think horses are individuals and often things that work for one, does not work for another… even at basic level.
If horse is going well with a pro in a Happy Mouth, perhaps the rider needs to spend more time on flat work before considering jumping.
Riders ordinarily do not “bit up” their horses as the jump height progresses.
[QUOTE=iJump;8067324]
I guess my question was kind of blanket.
Horse is ridden by pro, and is pretty respectful on the flat. Currently going in happy mouth.
I’m not talking about putting a Hickstead bit in it’s mouth, but I guess my question is more like… when do you start to play around with different bits?[/QUOTE]
I’ll take a shot at actually answering your question. I would say that you start playing around with bits at the point that something that was working is no longer working.
For instance, when I got my then 3yo, we worked him primarily in a Western D, two piece snaffle. He worked very well in it while he was learning the basics and we were doing the long and low and stretchy work that is appropriate for a 3yo. Eventually, as he got older and we started asking for more contact (and I started looking for a bit legal for dressage and hunter shows - he didn’t like the same bit with a hunter dee) it became clear that we needed to find something else that had a little different action. Lots of playing around and experimentation later, we landed on a loose ring 3-piece bit that is slightly curved to allow for a little bit of tongue relief. He was much more willing to accept more contact with a bit that acted a little differently in his mouth and he seems to like the play he gets from the loose ring.
As for jumping, when my horse was younger and we were walking and trotting xrails and doing lots of single jumps, the snaffle worked fine. But as we moved into cantering more jumps and doing courses, we found he occasionally can get reved up and pull down and through a snaffle. He knows better, but when he gets excited, he stops thinking and starts playing! Could I fix it in the snaffle, yes, but it might take several strides of half halt that I don’t have in the middle of a 3 stride. So we have found that a 3-ring works best for jumping. When he’s good, I can be soft, but if he needs a come to Jesus moment to remind him to get his brain refocused and his head up and his butt back under himself, I can get a really good effective half-halt by bringing a little bit of leverage to the party. I also have a Dee with rollers that we use for hunters when the 3-ring is verboten. So, again, I reiterate, you start playing with bits when what you have is no longer working, you know why it isn’t working and you have a reason to think that finding a different (not necessarily stronger) bit action might be part of the solution or provide a useful training tool.
What does your pro think? Are they suggesting you try a different bit for jumping then on the flat. If so, listen to why they think it is a good idea and make a decision from there.
as we moved into cantering more jumps and doing courses, we found he occasionally can get reved up and pull down and through a snaffle. He knows better, but when he gets excited, he stops thinking and starts playing! Could I fix it in the snaffle, yes, but it might take several strides of half halt that I don’t have in the middle of a 3 stride. So we have found that a 3-ring works best for jumping.
Or…you could stop doing the exercise he isn’t properly educated and mature enough to perform.
You could provide him with an alternative exercise designed to encourage him to balance up and remain attentive to the job at hand.
Instead of cantering into lines and doing courses, providing him with bounces and one stride gymnastics, for instance:
A cavaletti to a crossrail, followed by 18’ to a 9’bounce (steep X rails), followed by 20’ to a vertical-vertical one stride with a groundline set well out from the last element (see Linda Allen’s 101 Exercises and/or EquestrianCoach.com for ideas on this). Repeat a few times, then half circle right and left to another exercise you can canter to.
More physically and mentally demanding than “cantering more jumps and doing courses” and resorting to harsher bitting if the horse isn’t capable of remaining focused on the job and attentive to the rider.
I’ll play, since you have a pro riding, and I believe you are just asking in “general” when you bit up. I think that really depends on the horse and rider.
I’ve been known to switch bits pretty often. I’m constantly trying new things as my horse gets more experience and stronger, but it isn’t necessarily biting UP. He generally flats in a mild bit, and right now he is flatting and jumping in a mullen mouth. I switch when he seems unhappy or irritated, or he just seems to be completely ignoring me. I will sometimes bit up a little (nothing harsh), but I usually can only school around or jump in those a few times before its too much. So I usually keep three bridles and extra bits. I have a western bridle with a correction bit on it, for days he is feeling naughty and wants to haul me around. I have a western bridle with a plain, D ring french link on it for good days (more often than less), and for days when I put him into big flatting sessions with a lot of lateral work, pole work, and trot sets. Then I have his “jumping bridle” which right now is a mullen mouth. He loves to flat in that bridle, as well.
I guess I more often “bit around” than bit up. My horse is sensitive, smart, and a little ADD. He often needs a change, even if it’s as simple as a different bit some rides.
I’m sorry. Not every horse will jump around in a snaffle forever, no matter how hard we try.
[QUOTE=iJump;8067884]
I haven’t even sat on this one yet, and I don’t make changes without discussing first but I wanted some feedback. I’m always curious of what other people do.
I find it interesting how many people think that some horses are not just strong/hard mouthed from the beginning. I think horses are individuals and often things that work for one, does not work for another… even at basic level.[/QUOTE]
My current horse was in a HS Duo for a while…so VERY soft bit. He is jumping 3’6" courses and bigger single fences. I’ve JUST moved him into a metal snaffle (a very mild HS Dynamic double jointed snaffle) because he was starting to get strong and ignore my half halt while jumping AND when I moved him into the metal snaffle, he was respectful but also accepting. I COULD stop him and rate him in the HS Duo but at times had to get stronger than I like to get the response I need. I also changed to the same bit for his dressage work as he is now accepting of the metal snaffle. A year ago, he was too off the bit…and so I had put him in the Duo to get him more accepting.
I made the move because I could be softer and more subtle in the new bit. I doubt this horse will EVER need more than a snaffle. But there come a time when they are not backed off by the bit, and your rider needs a bit more so that they can actually use the bit less and stay soft.
Don’t you know that you can’t call yourself a rider until you can ride your horse around a GP course in an eggbutt?!
That’s why you see all of the pros taking their young jumpers around in plain snaffles with absolutely no stronger bits or martingales, duh.
Related: everyone on COTH has ridden at a level that makes them qualified to answer this question. You should definitely follow their advice and not the advice of your trainer.
[QUOTE=french fry;8068172]
Don’t you know that you can’t call yourself a rider until you can ride your horse around a GP course in an eggbutt?!
That’s why you see all of the pros taking their young jumpers around in plain snaffles with absolutely no stronger bits or martingales, duh.
Related: everyone on COTH has ridden at a level that makes them qualified to answer this question. You should definitely follow their advice and not the advice of your trainer.[/QUOTE]
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.
I jump my horse GP in a neck rope. Obviously, snaffles are for people who need MORE control.
[QUOTE=Belmont;8068180]
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.
I jump my horse GP in a neck rope. Obviously, snaffles are for people who need MORE control.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I like to ride my horse around the 1.60s with a spaghetti noodle in lieu of a bit so I can keep that soft feel on his mouth at all times and make sure he’s really going leg to hand.
Where did you learn that neck rope trick from, PARELLI???
Mmmm…spaghetti…
