Where are all the hunt horses?

[columbus]

How to produce one?

I am a part of a partnership in Minnesota who raise Irish Draught Horses and crosses(5 to 12 a year). Usually our horses are sold as foals but when we get some who stay…they(young Irish Draught Horses and crossbreds) do not make the most attractive yearling, 2 and 3 yos so buying them after weanling age is not for the faint of heart. So we are starting them lightly at 3 or 4 and bringing them back into training at 4 and 5. Generally, they are very well started on the flat and are starting to do cavalettis and grids. What would we need to do to become reliable producers for the eastern hunts from this point. I have a 6yo who is looking the part. Would we be able to find people who hunt who would like to bring new horses along or would we have to do it ourselves…we are not hunt members at this time and started stronger in producing for dressage…our homebred Irish horses are becoming successful regulars with amateurs and juniors in eventing as well. I would say that at least 25% of our horses would be easy fits or naturals to the life of a hunt horse. Another 25% would need to be 1 or 2 year horses. How do we learn to access this market? Thanks. PatO

[Huntin_Pony]

PatO:

This is a very good question that deserves a thoughtful reply (or ten). I hope several of the other folks will chime in. I have only made hunters for myself.

Have you or some of your partners hunted much? I think the first thing would be to have enough first-hand experience to know instinctively what is needed.

I think raising babies in as natural an environment as possible - rocks, logs, ditches, water, terrain, lots of running around - is very helpful. Trail riding them extensively when first backed (when is that for you - 3? 4?) and exposing them to “stuff” like cattle, traffic, dogs, trash cans and other things that you can find is also good.

They need very solid basic flatwork. They need to learn to gallop terrain with a rider and reliably jump small solid jumps with less-than-ideal approaches (and sometimes less-than-ideal rides). Ultimately, they need a year or two of hunting.

This is why some of the other posters correctly said that it is a money-losing proposition in most cases.

Other folks, please give this person some of your good ideas!

[Kodiak]

I agree with the above (especially the wisdom of letting them figure out for themselves how to safely gallop down a steep, muddy hill or negotiate a ditch) and will add:

Trail ride in groups, with strange horses, at different speeds. Work on getting the horse to listen to the rider instead of the other horses (zomg, huge pet peeve). Horseman’s Council has a lot of local chapters and big, organized trail rides that are very inexpensive to attend.

Stop occasionally during each ride and teach the horse to stand still for several minutes. I use a particular cue (dropping the reins) for ‘stand’. Ditto tying to the trailer/hanging out on the trailer for periods of time.

Starting them hunting, it helps to have a designated ‘made’ horse to chaperone the greenie for the first few hunts. This reduces stress, gives you a bumper if brakes fail, and allows you to retire if the greenie’s brain gets full or legs are tired.

Training in the hunt field will also go faster with a rider who is good at making horses, which is a smaller subset of the group “willing to ride a greenie”. He or she should be able to willing to tailor the outing to the horse (some appreciate a slow start, others are less stressed in a faster field; some like treat rewards and others want praise; etc) and do the little things like matter-of-factly drawing the greenie’s attention to the movement of hounds and staff and otherwise actively explaining the job.

One interesting area of discussion is the definition of “a hunt season”. I know plenty of people for whom that’s half a dozen rides in the fall… IME, a greenie goes through a lot of changes in the first 6-8 hunts: overwhelmed swinging to overconfident, then starting to steady down into the job. From about 8 to 15-20 hunts, it’s about getting experience. They’re secure enough in the job that the rider is a bit less critical and can make small mistakes, and the horse can really start to learn how to handle the variety of experiences a hunt horse will see. After a couple dozen hunts, you should have a pretty good idea what kind of horse you have.

I’ll be interested to hear others’ breakdown of the above in terms of hunts rather than seasons.

[Bogie]

Last year I was asked to start a horse in the hunt field for a friend. When I realized how good she was going to be as a hunt horse, I bought her myself. Agree with the poster who stated that you should spend the money on a horse that’s fun to ride and will bring you home safely.

She was the most expensive horse I’ve ever bought but she’s really fun to hunt. As I’m getting older, my old standby – going to the track and restarting for the hunt field – is less appealing.

If I were looking for a horse I’d also ask the staff at local hunts. i found a great hunt horse for a friend last year by talking to the Master at one of the nearby hunts. The horse was FREE and is doing great!

[LizArbittier]

Third person here with a horse from the Wilkoski’s. I don’t fox hunt but I wanted a hunt-type horse since all I do is hack around Cheshire Hunt country. Terrific family, lovely horses, completely honest representation. I’ve known John for a long time professionally and completely allowed him to pick the horse for me. I ended up with a spectacular horse who was exactly what I needed and wanted and I wish I had time for another.

[gypsymare]

I thought I’d resell my OTTB after a few seasons of hunting and make some cash on the side… But he turned out too nice and now I can’t bear to part with him! So I have a second one to bring along but her excellent brain and sweet little self are quickly making it difficult to consider reselling her.

The amount of time it takes to “make a fox hunter” just doesn’t equate to the price you can get for one.

[Q.llop]

Genesee Valley

Come to the Genesee Valley. We have plenty of made hunters for sale.

[gothedistance]

columbus -

You need to decide first where you want to market the horses - do you want NorthEast, Mid-Atlantic, or Southern hunts. Each hunting area of the eastern US has different kinds of territory that may be more suitable for one horse breed over another, just as it may favor one breed of foxhound over another. So research your market first - you can do that by reading up on some of the hunt magazines or browsing the Master of Foxhounds Association or hunt websites.

When you have decided what area your horse breed would be best suited for hunting then contact some of the hunts and ask them if they could give you the contact information for any of their members that are professionals who ride on horses for other people. Those professionals would be your best bet for getting your horses to be shown in the field actively hunting. They would be your marketing rep for selling the horses to clients who want to see how horse will act in the field and around the hounds, how it will jump, and if it is a packer or not.

Foxhunting is a very small enclave of the equestrian world and buyers are less apt to put a lot of money into prospectives than you would find in the other horse sports. So to put yourself into this market you would be best served to have the horses with the right hunts and under a professional who can actively hunt on them to show them to the buying market.

[gumtree]

Like all things horse, what constitutes a good hunt horse prospect and or a “made one” is subjective. From what I have read in this forum by people who hunt in different parts of the country it seems their idea of hunting and their hunt country is a lot different then my idea of hunting here in the Mid-Atlantic, Md. N Va. SE Pa.

IMO and experience the number one factor is a horse has to have a good jump, a really good jump. Very athletic being able to figure out how to get up and over in just about any given situation. With or without the rider’s help and or lack of. The horse should have superior endurance because we have some pretty long runs over many jumps and tricky terrain. The last thing I want to worry about is if the horse is running out gas and the landing gear collapsing. In other words, the mind is willing but the legs are not.

We only work with TBs because that is not only what we breed but the only horses I prefer to work with after their racing days are over if they raced at all. Ours or others. I also like to train and run a couple of steeplechase horses (timber) from time to time. So hunting is a “natural” for most of them and a great way to train and get fit.

We have a fairly big farm by east coast standards in Cheshire hunt country. With “hunt style” jumps all around the property and through our woods. Or we can just meander around the neighborhood, or a short trailer to others.

IME and experience a good prospect can have all of the above. Be good on trials with a few others. But the only way to get a good idea if the horse can “handle” the big picture is to at least take them hound walking. Because things can completely change when the horse is exposed to a pack of hounds coming straight at them and or coming from behind and “fanning out” around at the last moment. The also have to be comfortable with being “part” of a large group. In our case anywhere from 30 to 75+++.

Standing quietly at checks is preferred but I don’t mind a good jumping horse that tends to jig and or be a bit of a handful at times. To me it is all about their jump everything else comes second. Most of their silliness will dissipate with time and experience.

IMO I don’t think there is a “set” rule for how long a horse needs to become a decent hunter. The ones I figure are worth the time and effort pretty much take to it from the get go.

My wife grew up hunting with Cheshire. She had the good fortune of having family that hunted and was in the position to buy really nice horses. She hunted “imported” Irish hunters, and various WB sport horses. Her hunt horse for the last 9 years is a TB that I bought out of a field for $1,000. He looked the type and I knew a bit about his back ground. Had never really been jumped. He took to hunting like a duck to water and is the BEST horse she has ever been on. We turned down an offer of $30,000 going into his third season. And this was in the middle of the world financial meltdown. We make our living with horses and it was very tough times. We desperately needed the money. So that should tell you the reason why good hunt horses are difficult to find and expensive to buy. At least in our neck of the woods.

Columbus, the breed of a horse is a good advertising point. But in the end IMO really doesn’t make much difference. I like TBs as I said before. By and large IMO they are a superior all around horse. Contrary to popular belief. To each their own on this. TBs for the most part are always “pleasing to the eye”. Sorry, I am a bit of a snob I like good athletic looking well made horses.

I think given your location it would be very difficult to “market” a potential hunter in this area based on what you are doing with them in your location. Even if they have been “fairly hunted” under hunt conditions in your neck of the woods. I say that knowing nothing about hunting in Minnesota. To get a good price for one would require being hunted around here and being “marketed” by a “known”. If someone were to “hire” me to bring a horse a long so as to market it for a good price would be expensive. The ends most likely would not justify the means.

[ISR]

I’m quite glad the market isn’t flooded, and people aren’t using the hunt field as a business model as opposed to the real business of hunting. At least not in my hunt.

Some horses take it it brilliantly, some not so much and only one real way to find out. The big difference in the show horses and eventers, they can practice in their sandbox or x country field alone, and far away from myself and my horse, and perhaps most importantly, my hunt’s hounds.

If it was that lucrative, everyone would be out on green beans, and it wouldn’t make for much fun in the field.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=ISR;7792440]
I’m quite glad the market isn’t flooded, and people aren’t using the hunt field as a business model as opposed to the real business of hunting. At least not in my hunt.

Some horses take it it brilliantly, some not so much and only one real way to find out. The big difference in the show horses and eventers, they can practice in their sandbox or x country field alone, and far away from myself and my horse, and perhaps most importantly, my hunt’s hounds.

If it was that lucrative, everyone would be out on green beans, and it wouldn’t make for much fun in the field.[/QUOTE]

But how is doing it for a business any different than developing any horse to hunt? They all have to start somewhere. Around my area there are several hunts. I’m a landowner for a large one. I know many in the area who DO develop young hunt horses for market. And do make a profit at it. There is a smaller market for good hunt horses…but it can be a lucrative one…no different than any other. The successful ones are good at it.

They do it the way everyone who starts a young hunt horse. You get them out hound exercising. You take them out in groups with good quiet and experienced hunt horses. Sometimes you pony them. You start them out in the back fields…and you move them up as they are ready. You do your homework at home in terms of both fitness and manners.

And around here…they pick which hunt/and which field they go out with carefully and which country they take a horse.

If I had a horse that I thought was most suitable for hunting and wanted them steered in that direction…there are a few professionals who I would call and send them too. The biggest difference from the show world is they can only ride/hunt so many horses at a time…which is less than your average trainer showing horses can train and compete. And because of that…that is why there are not many in the business. Hard to survive on it…unless you have another buisness as well or family money!

[ISR]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7792488]
But how is doing it for a business any different than developing any horse to hunt? They all have to start somewhere. Around my area there are several hunts. I’m a landowner for a large one. I know many in the area who DO develop young hunt horses for market. And do make a profit at it. There is a smaller market for good hunt horses…but it can be a lucrative one…no different than any other. The successful ones are good at it.

They do it the way everyone who starts a young hunt horse. You get them out hound exercising. You take them out in groups with good quiet and experienced hunt horses. Sometimes you pony them. You start them out in the back fields…and you move them up as they are ready. You do your homework at home in terms of both fitness and manners.

And around here…they pick which hunt/and which field they go out with carefully and which country they take a horse.

If I had a horse that I thought was most suitable for hunting and wanted them steered in that direction…there are a few professionals who I would call and send them too. The biggest difference from the show world is they can only ride/hunt so many horses at a time…which is less than your average trainer showing horses can train and compete. And because of that…that is why there are not many in the business. Hard to survive on it…unless you have another buisness as well or family money![/QUOTE]

Yes, of course they must all start out somewhere, and one would hope that it is done slowly and correctly like you discussed. Someone who is a professional, even more ideal. I’ve just been present at far too many disastrous outings with young or inexperienced horses, much of which was likely preventable by starting off slowly.

I suppose my point was that I would rather not have every Tom, Dick, and Harry who wants to flip an OTTB for profit coming out and hunting in November.

[xeroxchick]

Ireland? No thanks. You bring them over here and they are crazzzy. One persons perfect hunter might not work for the next person. Simply put, you have to make them yourself.

[SidesaddleRider]

[QUOTE=xeroxchick;7793109]
Ireland? No thanks. You bring them over here and they are crazzzy. One persons perfect hunter might not work for the next person. Simply put, you have to make them yourself.[/QUOTE]

Well, I wouldn’t say that… I know of many nice imported Irish hunters. However, most of them had a learning curve when they started hunting in the USA, as hunting – and horse care in general – is MUCH different here than Ireland. For most of their owners, it was like starting a horse in the hunt field all over again, except that they knew what hounds were and that they were supposed to follow them and jump what they came to.

[Jleegriffith]

I mainly sell ottb’s but I sell quite a few to foxhunters and people know that I understand what makes a good foxhunter. Some I get the chance to hunt myself but you can tell quite a bit about how a horse will hunt by trail riding, xc schooling, riding in groups and more. I generally know which horses will hunt and which won’t hunt. I have sold two horses to a MFH who leads 2nd field of Wicomico and not what I would call a rider you would typically see mounted on a TB but these were exceptional Tb’s for the hunt field. The huntsman of Wicomico is also mounted on one of my thoroughbreds. I have sold two exceptional hunt horses to a member of another local hunt that she has whipped off.

I have three thoroughbreds in my barn right now that would make exceptional hunt horses but it seems to me that foxhunters generally don’t trust that a horse will hunt unless they have hunted and I understand that. Due to my work schedule I find it hard to find the time to put the actual hunt mileage on them myself but they have a lot of trail mileage!

[RacetrackReject]

Diana Crump has had a few listed on Facebook. I don’t know anything about her or her horses personally.

Westwind has a few for sale that have some hunt experience as well. I do know Michelle (Ishi on here) well and would take anything she said about a horse at face value.

[Bogie]

[QUOTE=Jleegriffith;7793572]

I have three thoroughbreds in my barn right now that would make exceptional hunt horses but it seems to me that foxhunters generally don’t trust that a horse will hunt unless they have hunted and I understand that. Due to my work schedule I find it hard to find the time to put the actual hunt mileage on them myself but they have a lot of trail mileage![/QUOTE]

I would certainly buy a horse from someone who has made up a few foxhunters, even if the specific horse hadn’t hunted.

I bought my current horse after hunting her three times and today I was patting myself on the back after the first cast – through a huge field with gusty winds. Many of the more experienced horses completely lost it! I don’t think she’d hunted much (if at all) before I took her out.

[SouthernYankee]

I might consider selling my mare, she’s hunted a little so she’s still relatively green but she will go all day and is safe. A forward ride, but will stop and stand as needed. Gets better each time she goes out. Has evented. Price is affordable. Send me a message if you want more info I don’t want to get in trouble for posting about her.

All of my horses have to be jacks of all trades, and they must all be wiling to try new things. I’ve been around some made hunt horses and they are a dream to be around. Best of luck in your searches.

[FLeventer]

My good friend has a packer that can hunt all flights in a loose ring snaffle. Has references from two hunts. Horse is a plain bay TBx who is 16hh and not “fancy” but easy, simple, and can be ridden by anyone. Vets clean.

Horse hasnt sold. Priced lower than whats listed here. Hes just not big and/or fancy but a trooper.

[Belmont]

It depends where you are! Lynn Lloyd at Red Rock Hounds always had a bunch at least hunted a season through seasoned. She also has all flights, and I love her and Angela. Shameless promotion!