Where do TBs really stand now

[floppyammy]

@Texarkana

@Ponyplusaninch

And it’s not even a TB thing. I see plenty of solid ammie WB mounts who are safe and fun but can’t compete in the same league as the uber hunters.

I’m not personally involved in the hunters anymore, but I have family still active on the A circuit and at the biggest shows, so I’m always casually paying attention to how they do and watching replays of their classes.

And my impression is that we have completely departed from the days of being able to “make” a hunter horse. There is no amount of training in the world that will create the “look” that now wins at the highest level. You have to start with the whole package as an individual and can then train and tweak that to win.

Maybe my POV about this is totally wrong. But I feel like the type of horse that is competitive has become ultra specific.

@Texarkana, you and I are clearly seeing the same things.

[TatteredDaydreamer]

I agree with this and it’s a huge part of why I feel very lucky to know my trainer. I’m in SE PA and she’s the only person in the surrounding area that I’d trust to start a youngster correctly. Because of her I’ve been able to buy two young horses, one wasn’t going to get to a size I needed and has been sold. I have my two year old that I purchased a few weeks after he was born from a very trusted breeder. It’s been so much fun to watch him grow and develop, and I can’t wait to see what the future holds. BUT…without my current trainer and her outstanding young horse program, I’d never been able to do this.

[floppyammy]

@beowulf

The TB also gets robbed of the credit of making a good horse when it’s a part-bred or cross. The WB in the equation is credited for making the horse what it is, even when 3/4 of the most recent ancestors are TB. The TB rarely gets the credit for the good traits in a cross. Even in sales, you’ll see language that avoids giving any nod to the TB - often referring to the horse as a “WBx”. In the rare event a horse’s pedigree is discussed by announcers at big events, you’ll often hear them totally disregard the TB in the equation too.

Do WB-only people think their supple, elegant, handy jumper WB got all that from a cart horse or that these traits just magically appeared one day through selective breeding? They were bred into the WB – by adding blood that already demonstrated the type and movement breeders want.

The thing is, I would say the vast majority of average H/J participants know or care little about breeding. They don’t care or have any interest in how in the horse in front of them came to be. They’re not interested in giving credit to the lineage that produced said animal. It just needs to do the job.

(***Please note that none of the views that I have shared on this thread are actually my own. they’re just what I see around me on a daily basis.)

[JB]

@floppyammy

I would say the vast majority of average H/J participants know or care little about breeding. They don’t care or have any interest in how in the horse in front of them came to be. They’re not interested in giving credit to the lineage that produced said animal. It just needs to do the job.

The same can be said about the average Dressage or Event rider, who only needs to know that their horse can do the job.

@Amberley

What confounds me is why the majority of US riders “do the hunters”, including almost all the novice riders and semi-retired older riders when it’s judged on the horse . Equitation exists as a super alternative for those riders offered at every show with year end awards at the local, regional and national level, so does the jumpers. And outside the circuit there is low level eventing, hunter paces etc, all of which are FAR more suitable to novice/ very part time riders and their kindly but not 6-figure mounts.

Because a lot of people love the idea of how a Hunter is to be shown, and work hard to develop and ride a quiet but forward course with perfect spots to produce the best jump that horse can give.

Not everyone wants to go fast or jump ditches. Not everyone has the time it takes to develop the equitation to win

[beowulf]

@floppyammy

The thing is, I would say the vast majority of average H/J participants know or care little about breeding. They don’t care or have any interest in how in the horse in front of them came to be. They’re not interested in giving credit to the lineage that produced said animal. It just needs to do the job.

Their ignorance of what produced the animal does not invalidate the animal’s parentage, is my point. In the rare instance the pedigree comes up, people omit the TB parentage or ancestry entirely. It’s deliberate – because admitting the horse is by a TB/out of a TB, or 3/4 TB, reduces its sale value in the HJ market.

Buyers and sellers care enough to say “No TBs please” in their ISOs. They care about it not being a Thoroughbred. They don’t care about anything else and the irony is some of them ride horses that are out of TB dams, or (rarer) by a TB stallion, or 3/4 TB when you look at the pedigree.

I agree with Texarkana about the competitive H/J requiring a genuinely niche horse. Even the WBs bred for it don’t always suceed. It requires a very specific type. TBs have the same issue WBs do - not every horse has the step, athleticism, or patience/generosity/temperament to be a competitive H/J horse. That’s alright - they play in the smaller sticks and do just fine.

[keenkick725]

This is so well said-as someone who only does hunters with a not six figure horse

[JB]

@Amberley

Isn’t that exactly what hunt seat equitation is judged based on? Vs the hunters which is primarily on the type of the horse.

You STILL have to ride well enough to not biff the jumps over and over, to know how to quietly rate the horse so his takeoff spot is perfect. Sure, there are some truly push-button horses who could do an entire course without any input from the rider other than steering to the next fence. But there are PLENTY of very nice horses who win at the top Hunter levels, who don’t do nearly as well when their truly amateur owner gets on for an AA round

@Amberley

This is a process that other countries with older horse industries have gone through- Pony Club games, polocrosse etc all originally came about as a way for kids with less money to be competitive in horse sports.

The US isn’t other countries. It doesn’t matter what’s done there.

[ATXmom]

What a lovely horse!

[JB]

@Amberley

That is very much not true. Almost ever dressage rider I know can talk pedigree all day. And eventers seek out certain bloodlines - many only ride horses from one breeder or one line.

I would not say that’s an average rider, not in the US anyway. Maybe our definitions of “average” are different.

[NancyM]

With some race training, and some good luck, the TB is a long term sound horse. No other breed of horse has the early neuromuscular development to withstand the early race training (other than a SB). Bone development isn’t that much different between breeds. But that early race training, barring injury, makes for long term soundness in later life. There are WBs who go irreparably lame from just trotting around in a riding arena. They don’t even have the excuse that they may have had an owner or trainer who was unconcerned about his long term soundness or best interests, and over extended their workload. Some TBs do have this “excuse” for their issues in later life. The joint injections start early with so many WBs, who have never raced, and who have not been “started” early, or “pushed” for early performance, and whose long term soundness and performance should be paramount in their training and care. Racing is the proving ground for soundness, and the culling system. It’s harsh, it’s brutal, it’s final. And 400 years of this selection is behind them. The lack of allowed AI breeding keeps the breed strong, unlike other animals that have already been ruined by constriction of the gene pool that is the result of AI being employed in other breeds and species.

Years ago now, I sold a non racing TB filly to a show hunter future. The rider was a child, her father was a race trainer that I knew locally. Their daughter’s coach was one of the most popular and successful in the area. The horse excelled, won a lot at the shows in our area. The coach and clients were heading across the continent to compete in the most important show at the time, a major competition. All the horses were to have all their joints injected prior to going. The child’s father, a successful race trainer was perplexed. Their horse had never taken a lame step, nor had a problem with her performance. He asked his racetrack vet about this plan. The race vet said “don’t do it”. So they refused to have the IA joint injections that ALL the other horses got as routine. The horse won everything at that show. She was a sound horse, a TB. The race vet told me that story, he knew that I was the breeder.
Would that horse win today? That, I don’t know. But she would still probably not need the joint injections. Which is a major bonus imo.

[floppyammy]

I’m genuinely confused. So are you saying that because the average H/J rider is riding a WB that probably has a large percentage of TB blood or is riding a TBx that they should not be ruling out a full TB?

Because in my experience, a horse that is even 75% TB usually rides quite differently than a full TB.

Not trying to argue - genuinely trying to understand.

I do feel like people should be allowed to rule out a breed that they don’t click with or don’t enjoy riding. I personally have never clicked with Arabians. It’s just not my ride. Is there one out there somewhere that I would probably enjoy? I would say yes, but the other 99% is not going to be for me.

[beowulf]

@floppyammy

I’m genuinely confused. So are you saying that because the average H/J rider is riding a WB that probably has a large percentage of TB blood or is riding a TBx that they should not be ruling out a full TB?

Because in my experience, a horse that is even 75% TB usually rides quite differently than a full TB.

Not trying to argue - genuinely trying to understand.

I do feel like people should be allowed to rule out a breed that they don’t click with or don’t enjoy riding. I personally have never clicked with Arabians. It’s just not my ride. Is there one out there somewhere that I would probably enjoy? I would say yes, but the other 99% is not going to be for me.

I am saying that the TB’s attribution to a pedigree is often overshadowed by the other half - AKA the WB – across all disciplines. You even see it in Eventing at the UL, where a horse will have a TB dam or TB sire and people say that the movement / jump / talent / whatever comes from the non-TB side. That’s why I was specifically saying parentage, versus “blood percentage”.

[FlyingSwap]

THIS. I cringe at the nice horses in bad/uneducated/rough and tumble/backyard hands. I don’t think they’re not winning because they’re TBs. They’re not winning because they look like hell and go like hell and are ridden like hell. Both my older TB, now in his early 20s, and my 5 year old up and coming TB have won in open company, the older horse MANY times. It helps when the judge likes a TB, because these horses don’t move in the big clunky slo mo suspension way, but they’re both outstanding movers as Hunters are truly meant to be. When you have a bit of an older judge I find that that sometimes works in your favor.

[Ponyplusaninch]

Thank you! He can really look like a distinguished gentleman with that head of his. And then he can be a real doofus. I’ll never forget the day I googled “can horses get concussions” after one particularly gnarly accident where he conked his head HARD on a metal stall door opening. He now has a lovely Harry Potter scar to show for it

[Arzny]

Personally, I think it’s nuts to rule out an entire breed. There are always individuals that are exceptions to the rule, and they may be missing out on a lovely animal by saying “no TBs”. I personally cannot stand big, heavy horses. But I don’t post ISO ads and say “no C line Holsteiners”, because that would be silly. A big, luggy grey horse may be exactly what I need.

I think the real reason the no TB is posted is that there is a certain subset of people who post their skinny, green OTTB with a knee chip on any and every ad. Saying no TB prevents you from having to wade through horses that are mostly inappropriate for the job.

[MadTrotter]

@Arzny

I think the real reason the no TB is posted is that there is a certain subset of people who post their skinny, green OTTB with a knee chip on any and every ad. Saying no TB prevents you from having to wade through horses that are mostly inappropriate for the job.

This is part of it, but also there is a prestige to the warmblood registry label. Like, why would you pay for a Prada bag if you knew it wasn’t made in Italy? Even if it was made in Germany of finer, more durable materials. It’s…Italian

Which is strange because most of the big ticket warmbloods are not posted on equinenow, etc but sold in-house, dealers, or imported. So the people looking at classifieds for warmbloods are deal shopping anyways.

And finally, the actually talented buyers know how to see through the ribs and lack of muscling to see the sport horse underneath.

[fivestrideline]

@Arzny

I think the real reason the no TB is posted is that there is a certain subset of people who post their skinny, green OTTB with a knee chip on any and every ad. Saying no TB prevents you from having to wade through horses that are mostly inappropriate for the job.

This may not be the main or only reason, but it certainly is a valid one.

Nothing drives me more crazy than “MUST HAVE: 17+ hands, gelding only, ready to step into the Children’s” and see people responding with their janky 15.1 hand mare that’s been a “broodmare” or “started on barrels”. It seems like the vast majority of these are OTTBs, at least on the H/J pages. I can see why a poster would say no TBs for this reason - every low-end sale barn seems to have a million (and posts them on every single ad).

Self perpetuating cycle - I know very few good trainers that would turn down an appropriate TB, but they aren’t seeking them out on social media.

[Arzny]

Exactly this. My fabulous TB is leased to a trainer who puts no TB on every ad. She loves my mare, and always asks for ten more of her, but the TBs that get posted on ISO ads are not the type of TBs that she wants.

[lenapesadie]

@fivestrideline

Nothing drives me more crazy than “MUST HAVE: 17+ hands, gelding only, ready to step into the Children’s” and see people responding with their janky 15.1 hand mare that’s been a “broodmare” or “started on barrels”. It seems like the vast majority of these are OTTBs, at least on the H/J pages. I can see why a poster would say no TBs for this reason - every low-end sale barn seems to have a million (and posts them on every single ad).

Or ISO: saintly packer for timid and fragile grandmother. And then 90% of the responses are OTTBs with 3 post track rides.

[NoSuchPerson]

@Amberley

What confounds me is why the majority of US riders “do the hunters”, including almost all the novice riders and semi-retired older riders when it’s judged on the horse . Equitation exists as a super alternative for those riders offered at every show

No, you are absolutely incorrect that “equitation exists as a super alternative” at every show. Adult equitation on the circuit I show on is mostly populated by those who have barely aged out of juniors and jumps are 3 ft.

I’m an old lady who is decades past my glory years, such as they may have existed. I will likely never jump over 2’3" again. You are nuts if you think showing in adult equitation is a viable and fun option for me. No thanks. I am perfectly happy to toddle around a 2’ course in Rusty Stirrup Hunters in a show ring full of other adults “of a certain age.”

I don’t get why you are always so insistent that the rest of us are doing it wrong, but you bring that attitude into pretty much every thread you post in. If I’m out there having fun and supporting the industry with my time and money by showing in hunter classes, how does that affect you and why do you care?