Where would you draw the line on issues for a broodmare prospect?

[JB]

@Warmblood1

All the articles in the world will not convince me that cribbing can not be learned. I’ve experienced it. It is possible.

The problem with individual experiences is that you are often looking at correlations as causations. That’s why research is so formalized, to take all that into account.

If only 1% of cribbers started after exposure to other cribbers, that alone almost proves it’s not learned. It could still easily be that the environment was conducive to triggering the stereotypie. Any given "Horse A cribs, and then Horse B started’ is correlation. But when you look at the bigger picture, and see that 99% of cribbers couldn’t have learned it, that has to be genetic. When you see that only 1% had another cribber around, it doesn’t prove it was learned, it’s easily just coincidence and correlation, not causation

[omare]

Good point glad i noted she was gray. She also had sacroids that we debated treating for cosmetic reasons when young on her neck. So I guess she had both and the melanoma was the real problem.

[Warmblood1]

I think the 1 percent shows that there is a learned component. I don’t think that the 1 percent has proven to be a genetic component either.

I understand that you’d question my experience but I’m quite comfortable and confident in my ability to distinguish learned behavior and in this case, I believe the behavior was learned. Of course, you don’t have to agree. But my opinion remains the same.

[Texarkana]

@Warmblood1

I think the 1 percent shows that there is a learned component. I don’t think that the 1 percent has proven to be a genetic component either.

I understand that you’d question my experience but I’m quite comfortable and confident in my ability to distinguish learned behavior and in this case, I believe the behavior was learned. Of course, you don’t have to agree. But my opinion remains the same.

Having raised a cribber, having raised many non-cribbers, having owned cribbers, this is always my take on that 1% you reference:

There is a saying:

Genetics loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger.

A horse might “learn” to crib if they have the genetic makeup that predispositions them to the vice already. Seeing another horse do it might be the proverbial “trigger” to begin the behavior.

But a horse without the genetic predisposition to crib will not learn the trait from a cribber.

Of course, this is nothing but my own interpretation from a combination of the literature and my experiences.

If you scroll up thread, you will see many accounts of people with cribbing broodmares and no cribbing foals. If it was a predominately learned behavior, I don’t think we’d be seeing that trend.

[beowulf]

Cribbing is not a learned behavior, but what likely happened in your case is these horses shared similar management practices that triggered the development of the stereotypy.

OP, I would not be concerned about the cribbing. I would be concerned about the sarcoids.

[Warmblood1]

@beowulf

Cribbing is not a learned behavior, but what likely happened in your case is these horses shared similar management practices that triggered the development of the stereotypy.

OP, I would not be concerned about the cribbing. I would be concerned about the sarcoids.

They were very different management strategies. I cared for the horse solely. The other horse was cared for by a different owner. Care had been consistent in care for years without changes. There were no health issues to attribute to the cribbing. I had owned the horse since he was a youngster. The only thing that changed was his exposure to a horse that cribbed nonstop next to his stall. Everything else was consistent. It was a learned behavior. You will not convince me otherwise, sorry.

I agree completely with what @Texarkana is stating.

[JB]

@Warmblood1

I think the 1 percent shows that there is a learned component.

It doesn’t though. It’s correlation.

There happened to be a cribber around, so the same environment. Another horse in that same environment also started to crib.

Since there’s no specific gene identified, no, it can’t yet be proven that it’s always genetic. But, horses are pretty intelligent, and learn a lot of things by observing. Given that, it would seem like learned cribbing would be a whole lot higher than just 1%

@Warmblood1

I don’t think that the 1 percent has proven to be a genetic component either.

Also, since there’s no identified gene, yet, that can’t be emphatically proven either.

Here’s the actual study in the above articles
Crib-biting in US horses: breed predispositions and owner perceptions of aetiology - PubMed (nih.gov)

TBs were by far the most affected. Right there, it points to a breed, and therefore a genetic, component. This is how we’ve learned that things like DSLD are genetic, before there’s a genetic test - finding out that certain breeds are over-represented.

The point about the many cribbing dams, without cribbing foals, also speaks to it not being a solely learned behavior. Like I said, horses are intelligent, and learn things by mimicking. Lots of foals share the same “quirks” as their dams, from holding a leg up while eating, to a certain type of head flipping when excited, to sticking out their tongues, etc. I brought a horse into my then-2-horse-herd who loved to splash in the water tub. In very short order, the other 2 were also doing it.

My TB mare licks her lips like a cat (she’s of the StormCat line, her name is Funny Cat, I think that’s hilarious!) and also raises a leg when she’s anxious-eating. Her son does the exact same 2 things. Her son lived for 9 years next to my WB gelding who licked his stall wall and door after every meal. But he does neither of those things. The WB did that his entire life, starting as a foal, and I long suspected it was the mildest form of “cribbing” that just never progressed because he always had great management (diet, turnout, etc).

[beowulf]

So this horse was in a stall?

One of the biggest triggers of stereotypies is stalling and isolation.

[endlessclimb]

I think people who believe that horse can learn how to crib by watching another horse do it WAY overestimate a horse’s intelligence. Chewing wood, maybe, because “hey what are you eating?” is a natural curiosity. But for a horse to watch another and say “ok, so I put my teeth, not my lips, there on that ledge, and pull back and just a little up, while relaxing my throat and BURP ahh yess now I see what Mr. Ed gets out of that, yeah!” is completely insane.

It’s about as likely as my horse learning to run a barrel pattern by watching other horses do it.

[Warmblood1]

He had access to a stall but had 24/7 turn out. I understand stall confinement in a trigger. That was not a trigger.

[LaurieB]

@endlessclimb

It’s about as likely as my horse learning to run a barrel pattern by watching other horses do it.

Way back when I was a child, one of the then top small ponies in the country stood in the chute awaiting her turn for an over fences class in the big ring at Devon, then entered the ring and began her round. The rider fell off midway through the course and the pony continued the round without her, finishing the course flawlessly. Maybe ponies are smarter than horses?

[JB]

@LaurieB

Maybe ponies are smarter than horses?

A top pony has jumped more courses than most horses ever do, and I’m guessing a course even at Devon for a Small was the basic figure 8 course, which she could do in her sleep

[endlessclimb]

Yes but pony did not learn the simple hunter course by watching other ponies do it. The pony learned it by toting crappy pilots around for years.

[Willesdon]

Horses are individual characters, perhaps more than their riders realize, and each will learn in different ways. Some are basically thick, some are very intelligent, some learn by observation, some are curious, some less so. I recall a paper from a couple of years ago that said there was no fail-safe way to secure a stable door because, at some point, some horse or other would work out how to open it. Should have saved the reference.

[exvet]

Please do not put me in this group. I passed on breeding to a popular stallion of my chosen breed because I did find out that not only did he crib but he had two offspring that were confirmed cribbers. Could I have unknowingly bred to a stallion that was a cribber? No because I only used my own stallions. While I would certainly try to control the microbiome to reduce frequency if I did have a cribber, I don’t think we, the veterinary profession or animal behaviorists, know for sure what causes many of the stereotypies that deter potential buyers so I prefer to just avoid them to the extent that I have that kind of control.

[NancyM]

“IMO”, a horse who “learns to crib from watching another horse crib”, was already under stress, and looking for an endorphine release, and was a ripe candidate to start cribbing anyway. If a horse (or a human) has a sensitive and addictive personality and is put under pressure and stress, acquiring an addictive behavior that provides that is pretty classic. It comes as a surprise to some owners that their horse is under stress, since most owners work hard to keep their horse happy and healthy. But what causes stress in any particular horse may be extremely varied, and may not be recognised by the owner, especially in advance. It also may not be able to be avoided for the horse- cases such as injury or illness to the horse causing stress, or the classic “stabled life” which can be hard to avoid in many situations. Or, simply a “change in living conditions or job descriptions” may be the trigger. Add in going to some horse shows on the road, and understand that we do put substantial mental pressure on horses in our relationship with them. When we select and breed high level athletes, and press them for top level performance, it’s not too surprising that some of them are looking for an outlet. My point is that by breeding horses like this we DO select for the type of horse that may also become a cribber, because of the selections we have made. And while not all cribbers are high level athletes under high pressure lifestyles, it’s always difficult to know what any individual may see as stress or pressure. It may not be what you see as stress or pressure. Any horse may start cribbing, at any time, for any reason, which you may or may not be able to identify or understand. They can still win in high level competition for you, as a cribber.
As you can see, I’ve owned some cribbers who have been superstars in various disciplines, and have cherished the thrill of being their pilot and trainer. I quit using cribbing straps 40 years ago. I equate cribbing with fingernail chewing in humans…not a personality flaw that nixes my relationship with that living being. I can see past this minor flaw, to appreciate the athlete. If you can’t look past this flaw and would rather sell dump such an addict cheap to get rid of it, I may be your buyer. And I’ll see you in competition.
I have a good friend who feels the same about cribbers. Bought a TB yearling at the sale that she really liked at the local yearling sale that no one else would even bid on. A cribber. “No Bid”. Paid $500 for her back at the barn. I got to ride her for a few weeks in the early spring of her two year old year. I was stunned by the feel of her… An athlete. Felt brilliant. I had to phone the owner to gush about her, just from trotting around in my ring in February. Turned into a multiple stakes winner, a superstar, and named champion racehorse. Now a broodmare, who has reproduced herself, champion, multiple stakes winning offspring, yet another superstar. What a brilliant mare, and a wise purchase. Another much loved and appreciated cribber. Sensitive overachiever. An intense athlete.

[Warmblood1]

@NancyM

IMO”, a horse who “learns to crib from watching another horse crib”, was already under stress, and looking for an endorphine release, and was a ripe candidate to start cribbing anyway.

Not in my case. I owned the horse since he was a youngster and provided his care. His care was consistent for years prior to and when he started cribbing. He did not crib for years, then was stalled and pastured next to a horse whose owner refused to use a crib strap and stop the cribbing. The horse cribbed next to him constantly. My horse began cribbing. If it were an issue with care, the horse would have cribbed for any of the years prior to being exposed to the cribber. The only thing that changed with him is that he was exposed to a cribber. He was not stalled, had access to 24/7 turn out, constantly had excellent pasture, hay, was on a low starch feeding regiment, was clear of ulcers, was kept from boredom, did not have any other vices, etc.

[JB]

@Warmblood1

He did not crib for years, then was stalled and pastured next to a horse

I realize at this point that nothing will change your mind on this not being a learned behavior, but It’s very possible that in this case, the new horse was enough of a stress to your horse that it triggered the cribbing.

We (in general) like to think that just because the horse is never stalled, has a low NSC diet, etc, that he isn’t stressed. If that were the case, no horses who live the life of leisure out in a pasture full time, no work, would never develop ulcers either.

But herd dynamic issues aren’t always obvious. Even being turned out full time isn’t always unstressful, just like being stalled isn’t always stressful.

That’s what I mean by “correlation != causation”, and why it takes research of enough subjects to eliminate certain factors that really aren’t related to the issue being studied.

[lenapesadie]

Jumping in the cribbing discussion.

My homebred learned to crib at about age 7 without ever seeing another horse crib. Never, not one time. In my horse’s case, I identified the cribbing very early on and was able to make management changes immediately. I also put a cribbing collar on him for a week. Took the collar off. The cribbing stopped and he has never cribbed again.

ETA my anecdote suggests that horses begin cribbing independently not from other horses and that swift intervention can stop cribbing before it becomes an ingrained habit

[Texarkana]

My homebred started cribbing around 3. She lived in a 10 acre pasture with a same age playmate and 3 older horses to keep them in line. It was the textbook perfect herd. It was the textbook perfect life. Compatible friends, good nutrition, unlimited forage, no stress… she had been started under saddle for several months but wasn’t really in work yet.

Then one week, the whole herd found an extra tasty rotting split rail in the fence that just had to be messed with. Next thing you know, my filly was cribbing.

No one else on the farm cribbed. We investigated ulcers. Vet poked and prodded for other problems. There wasn’t anything to find. I tried to stop it with collars and muzzles, no luck. I do wonder if I could have electrified that whole fence immediately if she would have forgotten about it, but I doubt it.

She is the only cribber I have raised, also the only horse of mine I saw go from non-cribber to cribber while in my care.

She’s a sensitive horse, but I wouldn’t describe her as the personality you usually see stereotypies in. She has given me absolute hell under saddle at different points in her life, but as she ages that is mostly a distant memory.