Which size pen to separate herdbound horse? The smaller the better?

[cardinale]

Recently, I started a thread re putting pipe corrals/pens on grass. On Monday I have a guy coming over to help put up the pens. I have another question and since it’s basically on a different aspect, started a new thread.

The main reason for the pens is to begin separating a 3-yo gelding from his pasture mates, to whom he is fanatically attached. My thinking is to start with simply putting him in a pen with hay, for progressively longer times each day. The pasture mates will be nearby–I will feed them next to him outside the pen, then gradually move their food away a little more each day. He can see them of course the entire time.

Nevertheless, he will be quite agitated and “run the fence.”

My question is: to help him settle, would you start by making his pen smaller (12’ x 12’) or larger (12’ x 24’)? Of course I can change the size later but have to have someone come over each time (not trivial) to help.

The goal is to get him used to separation and confinement so that eventually he can be tied (overhead) and started. This colt is pretty strong-willed and determined so this will not be easy on him.

He did go to an experienced young horse handler for several months as a yearling and been tied, etc. but I don’t feel safe doing it just now until he is better about going away from the other horses. He has been tied via looping over a fence all along but the other horses were always nearby so no issues. Duh, I didn’t realize how bad he’d gotten.

[SusanO]

I have a mare that got pretty herdbound and she is sort of an insecure sort. So I realized I needed to separate the two mares. So I gave the insecure one the big pasture and made a smaller pasture for the other mare and her gelding pony friend. Herdbound one had more grass and she loves her grass and she became more and more independent. If I had put her in a small enclosure she would have freaked out and become more and more stressed. This way she gradually decided that eating was better than friendship.

I know other people do it differently and their methods might work with other horses. But it would have been a disaster considering her temperament. You need to work with the horse you have and that one may think differently than mine.

[Texarkana]

I’d be inclined to go slightly larger.

I don’t think smaller is inherently safer in this type of situation.

[cardinale]

Oh, wow. Yanno, I really don’t have any experience trying to do this. I just figured that smaller would slow him down. But, sounds as though that’s the wrong approach.

He could go in a 100’ square arena next to the pasture. Perhaps that is safer and better? I have put him in there and he did start settling down somewhat in an hour or so but was still distracted.

What’s underlying this is that I really can’t do anything with him when he is apart from the others, even if he can see them. And, he is very strong willed (the pro who had him as a yearling commented on this so it’s not just my imagination). I need to get him ready to go out and be started soon.

FWIW this gelding was born to a mare I bought to be a companion to another horse that, despite a PPE, unknown to me turned out to be pregnant. So, I’m trying to do my best but admittedly don’t have prior experience with babies. A trainer I thought would be available when I moved here from out of state last year didn’t pan out and I wasn’t able to find anyone else nearby although recently I got a name of someone good who might be able to help. I just don’t want to send out a basket case although just leaving the property might help.

[Texarkana]

I didn’t mean the pen won’t work, but 12x12 sometimes makes them too claustrophobic which leads to other potential accidents.

My experience with this is mainly with laid up horses on confinement.

12x24 I think is the better option of the two. But that’s just my gut instinct. You know your horse.

[Huntin_Pony]

I would make it a round pen rather than a square one because he is less likely to get himself stuck in a corner. So if you have six 12-foot panels, arrange them in a hexagon instead of a rectangle.

But it might turn out that the trainer you’ve chosen would just as soon you send him (or her) the youngster “as is.” Have you asked? The colt’s behavior may not seem as difficult to the trainer as is does to you.

[GraceLikeRain]

I wouldn’t go much bigger than a 12x24 because he could build up a lot of speed. I would get the tallest panels you can or add some type of extender with wide tape electric up top. If he’s really bullish I’d worry about him trying to climb or jump a 5 foot panel.

[PaddockWood]

Let’s hear more how agitated he gets. Two friends come to mind that both had horses try to jump a panel and the other out a dutch door bottom. Both with serious injuries as a result. And this is my year of doing really stupid shit so I now stand back a minute when doing some things and think…“what could go wrong”.

I have a herd bound mare and in her past she would run a fence, walk a fence for days, and in general lose her mind. She’s no longer doing any of that. She does call out if left alone - and I have just two horses and take my other out on my back 20 and we disappear for 15 to 30 minutes.

What has really helped her nervous system is a day like this morning. I take my two in hand out for a walk out and around. When I put her back alone she is calm and I’m able to then leave her alone for another 30 and be gone with my other one. I’ll hear her call out but she’s not running. It’s a long journey in my experience to get these high anxiety horses regulated and secure.

I also had a horse who was allowed to run a fence and tore his suspensory. Be careful with how much you let happen. Just be aware.

[cardinale]

Thank you for the replies and great perspectives. I’m going to give a more complete picture; hope it doesn’t get into TL/DR territory.

I don’t think he will go ballistic or try to jump the panels, which are 6’ tall Noble Panels with square corners (made in the USA, very strong, used with mustangs etc.). He is strong-willed but not suicidal. I’m more worried about wear and tear on his legs.

The problem now is that when I try to lead him away from the other horses (2 mares, including his mother) he acts up on the lead line and gets uncontrollable. The best thing seemed to me to get him to where he can eventually go on a “patience pole” type setup or some other way he can learn safe constraint and how to regulate his emotions when he doesn’t get his way. The pens were my thought as to the first stage in doing this–just a way to stop him from doing what he wants. Before really tying him I would get professional guidance to make sure he’s ready

Unfortunately, the guy who might be able to help is an older gentleman who is supposed to be very good but more of a local Western clinician who might come to my house. Definitely not someone who takes horses in training. I’ve asked everyone in horses around here about trainers but no luck–this area turned out to have much less horse activity than I thought when I moved here.

When he went to the pro as a yearling he settled in well, did well and the trainer liked him (but did comment on his persistence in trying to get his way). He turned out quite nice physically and I would like to keep him.

But, I need to find out whether he will progress out of this or whether he will always have issues in a home horsekeeping situation, especially with his mother on the property. Maybe just getting started later this year, given a job, and trained to look to people for guidance will supplant his focus now on the two mares.

Probably the best thing to do now is to contact the clinician and find out whether he would come to my property to help.

[Huntin_Pony]

Yes, getting help as soon as possible is a good idea.

No reason at this point to think he won’t progress and be a solid citizen in the future.

Good luck.

[fanfayre]

How was he to geld?
Is there any chance he could be cryptorchid? That may explain a bit of the strong-willedness…

Otherwise, I don’t really have any other suggestions except to say I would send him away - to board- for the training so the trainer can work with him there, AND I would expect to have the training and boarding take 2-3 times longer than originally suggested.

Before bringing him home after the training, I would seriously consider re-homing either him or one of the other mares, or, more likely (if it was me), acquire another horse - a gelding or a very dominant mare, so he can either be fully separated from the mares but not be alone, or have the dominant mare put him in his place- even though it will mean rejigging your layout and fencing

Good luck with him regardless of your choices…

[PaddockWood]

And I would be very careful to have a trainer who really is out to help the horse. I know my mare fell into the wrong hands and had terrible things done to her. Horses with emotional issues really are more delicate and helping a horse become brave and safe is quite different from taking them to a shut down state.

[RedHorses]

@Huntin_Pony

I would make it a round pen rather than a square one because he is less likely to get himself stuck in a corner. So if you have six 12-foot panels, arrange them in a hexagon instead of a rectangle.

This. I have five portable horse panels for camping at an endurance ride. I used to set them up as a 13’6"x 27’ rectangle until the ride where the horse camped next to us went home on Saturday afternoon. My horse spent the night fussing and crashing into the corners of the pen. He managed to move the entire pen about a foot.

Next ride I set them up as round as I could and he didn’t run into the fence.

If your trainer is coming to you, I’d ask them if they’ll use a round pen and what size they’d prefer. Then I’d use the 100’ square to separate them as long as the fencing is safe.

[Libby2563]

Warwick Schiller has some really good videos on separation anxiety. Some are on YouTube, or you could do his free trial. The gist is 1) small steps to expand the horse’s comfort zone gradually and 2) teaching the horse to self-regulate and stay present, with minimal human intervention (ie it’s not just about listening to you). It might not be enough for this particular horse and living situation, but I bet you could make some headway. I found it useful even in a few short sessions with my herdbound guys.

[cardinale]

@Libby2563

Warwick Schiller has some really good videos on separation anxiety.

Thanks. I will look for those. I remembered just now that the colt became attached to the trainer who worked with him as a yearling–when the guy hauled him to my place to drop him off, as the trailer was leaving the colt actually ran along the fence next to the driveway and screamed for the trainer (but then did settle down shortly thereafter, with the two mares).

So, this horse has a propensity to become emotionally attached…but might “get over it” fairly readily too…it might be that he just basically wants to pitch a fit, then give up if it isn’t working. That’s why I think that eventually tying him to a patience pole might be good for him.

Clearly this horse doesn’t at present have confidence in me to make him feel secure in the absence of other horses. Unsurprising considering that I unavoidably fumbled around somewhat handling him as a foal–no big harm done, but he always had a mind of his own and my inexperience didn’t help. Also, I have backed off at times rather than get too forceful in the wrong way out of fear of “screwing him up.”

This experience has shown how little I knew about handling this type of situation. I’ve ridden a lot of green horses, re-started OTTBs, and even backed a couple but they were all at boarding or training barns with lots of horses around.

It’s a little surprising to me that this horse turned out to be insecure in this respect because he is actually pretty bold and unfazed by things in general–but as I found out, as long as his mommy is nearby.

Re some of the other good points raised above:
His testicles were both well descended when he was gelded at 10 months of age. No problems there and he is not at all sexual with the mares–just emotionally attached.

That’s a great idea to make a round pen instead of a square or rectangle. I’ll put up a 30’ diameter pen which could be enlarged and moved into the arena if I can get the local clinician to come over and he suggests doing so (the arena will have better footing).

I am definitely sending this horse out (off the property) to be started. The guy who worked with him as a yearling is good and he will do it but he’s too far away to help with the current situation. As PaddockWood noted it’s risky sending them out to someone you don’t know enough about which is why I want someone to come to my place to help with the herdbound issue. I did get a good pair of gloves and a long lead rope (more like a longe line) to work on the handling when he acts up.

Fanfayre, one of the mares I currently have is actually very dominant and puts the colt in his place, so he behaves well around them. It’s me he doesn’t respect. Re the suggestion to get another horse: actually, I have had my eye on a filly that’s for sale so appreciate the enabling. This is not a good time for me to be getting another horse, but it would help to be able to have 2 groups and mix things up. There is plenty of room and it wouldn’t be difficult to make it work property-wise…hmmm…

I think that with help including information from videos such as those from Schiller that this horse will improve a great deal.

[Texarkana]

I feel you OP, I also have a “surprise” 3 year old— I brought home a retired standardbred broodmare who was in retraining with a very reputable rehoming organization. She hid her pregnancy REALLY well.

Mine was also with her mom most of her life, although I unfortunately had to put mom down last fall.

It’s tricky with these sole babies. I’ve had plenty of other foals I’ve raised, but this one has had some unique challenges that I think are due to the circumstances of her formative years.

Anyway, Warwick Schiller’s program that @Libby2563 sounds similar to what I’ve found myself with my herdbound horses— gradually stretch the horse’s capacity so the feel confident enough to self-regulate. A regular routine helps with that. But also— baby-steps. I had one mare who would literally kick down the barn walls if her friends went out of sight. So her routine was to come in the barn with a friend every day (had to lead them together). When that was no big deal, I started turning her friend out first at the end, adding just a few moments of “aloneness.” When my mare could handle that, they started coming in and out one at a time to expand those moments of aloneness. Etc. etc.

It’s never linear progress. You might think the separation anxiety is improving, then a scary noise outside sets you back. But if you slowly build the horse’s capacity, they will eventually learn to self-regulate.

This post turned into a novel and I hope I don’t come off as sounding preachy or judgey or like I think I know it all. I don’t. I’ve made and still make every mistake in the book. But I’ve unfortunately felt like I’ve been “gifted” with a lot of these situations so I can definitely commiserate and share my experiences.

[4horses]

If you are going to use the pen, make it a round pen so you can work on lunging on a daily basis. At least til he gets some manners.

Herd bound horses are a real pain in the rear. Sometimes the best thing to deal with buddy sour horses is to just take them off property and board them somewhere else. Lots and lots of trailering them to different environments and spending the night somewhere new. But you have to have some control and manners established first.

[endlessclimb]

I fully agree with this. Getting him away from his buddies where HE has something to occupy his brain would be the first thing I did, not put him in a pen where he can cook up fifty ways from Sunday to get a vet bill.

Lunging and general ground manners. It sounds like this dude has your number.

Also - if you can’t lead him nicely, you are in no position to tie him yet - you’re setting him up to fail from the start.

[cardinale]

@endlessclimb

Lunging and general ground manners. It sounds like this dude has your number.

Also - if you can’t lead him nicely, you are in no position to tie him yet - you’re setting him up to fail from the start.

Oh, yeah he knows he can pull sh*t with me on the leadline although I do make him yield and stay out of my space when working around him on the ground. Also deter food agression–he knows he has to back up and turn away before I put his food out. But, it took me awhile to figure out each of these things–that’s the issue with no help and working with a new training problem on my own.

I have been loathe to longe/do a lot of ground work with him until he’s old enough to not risk e.g. hock injuries which I have seen when people longed their young horses too much too early.

Should I have done more groundwork all along? Yes, although again without help or prior experience and given that he has always from birth been sharp and reactive (= if I don’t do it right it seems counterproductive to try) I have always been hesitant to do more fumbling around on my own, figuring the dominant mare would keep him in line overall until he came of age to get started under saddle. Clearly a miscalculation and not optimal in hindsight.

For the record, when I bought this place I thought I had a trainer lined up who would come to my property. The listing agent was a horsewoman who knew having help available was important to me, so when I flew up to see the house in person while it was in the contingency phase of escrow, the agent brought the trainer out (someone she had a long prior association with and whom she raved about), who readily agreed to drive out (for more $) from her place on a regular basis to work with me and my horses. But, after I moved in she turned out to be a duplicitous flake who only wanted to sell me horses and have me put them in training at her place, having seen neither my horses nor my riding but I digress. (Moral of this story which again, in hindsight, “Duh”: don’t buy a place with only one trainer nearby.)

There are really no places I know of to board him within driving distance. It’s the sticks.

Yeah, I mentioned above no tying at this point.

[Texarkana]

@cardinale

I have been loathe to longe/do a lot of ground work with him until he’s old enough to not risk e.g. hock injuries which I have seen when people longed their young horses too much too early.

It doesn’t have to be a long session, though.

I used to longe horses around and around and around…

Now a longing session is maybe 10 minutes or less. And often broken up with other ground work. Mostly at the walk and halt, although I will still trot and even canter if ready in a session that short.

I’ve also let go of the idea it has to be perfect all the time. I don’t need to drill things until they are perfect. Is my baby responding in the correct ballpark? Good, end on a positive note.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m way behind on working with my baby. But these are just tidbits that have helped me after making all the mistakes in my past.