Whisker removal banned in international competition from next year

We don’t have studies on this because nobody cares enough to fund research that will defend your god given right to shave your horse’s whiskers so he looks pretty.

I mean if I had money to donate to veterinary research that’s probably the last thing I’d want my money going toward. Let the universities study colic, or genetic diseases, or neurological conditions, or literally any other condition more serious than the length of your horse’s whiskers.

So in the absence of research we should listen to the experts. In this situation the FEI veterinary committee voted unanimously on this rule. Those individuals know more than you or me so I’m inclined to listen to those people.

I mean we also don’t have peer reviewed studies on why you shouldn’t take your horse sky diving but there experts will still tell you that’s a bad idea. The absence of a study doesn’t really mean a lot here.

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So basically you’re saying the scientific community has better things to worry about? :slight_smile:

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Uh, I have some bubble bursting news about “research.” :sweat_smile:

There is of course plenty of life saving research going on: vaccines, colic, genetics, whatever, but one thing to remember is that academia is basically publish or perish. Schools tend to feel this makes them look good, and frankly, lots of PhDs love their subject matter and hate teaching, so a contract that guarantees they’re expected/allowed to research is two thumbs up. Getting a PhD? You have to publish. In a grad program? You likely expect/want to publish, so your professors are going to be expected to have something going you can co-author on. Finishing your veterinary residency? You have to publish. And while you are publishing? You are expected to keep up with all your other duties.

All that to say, there are a ton of people out there looking for simple, quick, low stress studies, rather than or in addition to the next major break through. The “littler” stuff is both very important and a major relief from the higher stress work. Groundbreaking research is for people with about 16 students or co-authors working under them. Most people are not that. Most ongoing research is smaller and simpler than you’d expect and does not require a million dollars worth of funding. Most of it looks far more like proving anecdotal evidence true or false…

Between students, academia, residents, whatever, there are in fact lots of people who are not expecting to cure cancer with their research. Equine studies, Nutrition (how does lack of vibrissae affect feed intake/feed type chosen, etc.), ACVIM - equine neurology, Behavior. All fields where I think someone would/should be interested in publishing this work.

Why do I think there’s no research? (Again, if you can find it, share it!)

  1. It’s niche. Nobody other than a minority of horse people, cat people, and animal rights people care. Now that it’s an international rule? It may finally break out of that niche group and get some interest from outsiders who might take it on.

  2. I honestly don’t think many researchers believe it has credence… Let me put it this way, as a veterinarian, this is something we discuss. Why? Because owners come in and ask about this after reading it on the internet. So, at least once every couple of years the veterinary forum I’m on bubbles up because someone asks if this is a real thing or an internet thing. Then it dies down. I have never seen a veterinarian present a case of “missing/lost/clipped whiskers causing clinical signs” with anything other than a history of “the owner is concerned, but I suspect it’s the ear mites, trauma, other things - anyone dealt with this before?”

  3. Now I’m going to get controversial. The majority of people concerned about the dangers of whisker clipping are totally civil, level-headed folks who just want to do the right thing. The minority are absolute ****ing nightmares. I know of at least two vet practices who had to call in lawyers and law enforcement, after clipping the whiskers on cats in the course of treatment (I believe abscesses in both cases?). The threats and attacks were that bad. Were the cats clinically ill or harmed from this whisker clipping? Was it done intentionally or with ill will? No, but that didn’t matter to these die hards. They thought whisker clipping was evil and somebody would pay. Publishing a study with a finding they disagree with? Well, best of luck to you.

So, at the end of the day, it’s niche, the anecdotal evidence is pretty “meh,” and the group who cares the loudest about it has a small but frightening core group who will describe to you in detail how they hope you kill yourself. (I’m serious about this. I have read the e-mails. I didn’t sleep well for a week.)

Whisker clipping and sky diving are hardly on the same planet as far as risks. The absence of a study doesn’t mean whisker clipping isn’t bad. It also doesn’t mean whisker clipping isn’t good. And all those FEI vets voting for it? Well, to me that’s easily explained: people either don’t care/think it’s silly, or people REALLY care, so just get rid of it. In five years, no one will remember all this fracas. That does not mean those FEI vets feel very strongly that whisker clipping is a welfare or health issue. Anyone who has been in a large organization will tell you that you vote on the most mundane things just to get them off the docket and a unanimous vote is often not a round of applause, but a vague waving away of the hand so you can move onto other things.

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As for “whatabouting”, bringing skydiving into a discussion of whisker clipping is precisely why these conversations go nowhere.

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I’m not saying it’s bad. But there are enough professionals that think it is. My vet is one of them. I just don’t understand if the downside to whisker clipping could be that there’s a chance it’s not bad for horses but the upside is… it looks pretty? Why are we even arguing about this?

I agree with you about the lack of research, it’s niche and nobody really cares enough one way or the other to devote resources too. But we can’t just use the absence of research to march around saying it’s fine when we have a decent amount of professionals saying it’s not.
I think the real reason people are so mad is because they just don’t like being told they might be wrong about something. If you’ve been clipping whiskers your whole life and someone tells you to stop because it could be damaging, you’re more likely to be defensive over the practice instead.

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I feel like everyone’s assuming there’s no study that has shown the results we are arguing about. So far nobody has said, “I have access to a database of scientific papers, I’ve searched, and there are no studies.”

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“I have access to a database. I’ve searched.” I will not say there are no studies. I will say I have not found any with my keyword searches. That does not guarantee there are none. Hence, my repeated requests for one.

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“But we can’t just use the absence of research to march around saying it’s fine when we have a decent amount of professionals saying it’s not.”

But we have a decent number who are saying it is? Your vet thinks it’s bad. I may or may not know your vet (we’re a small profession but not that small!) but I haven’t personally spoken to a fellow vet who thinks it’s not fine, just rather err on the side of caution if a client asks and tell them not to do anything they don’t have to, just for looks.

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FYI, searching PubMed is really easy for anyone. You may not be able to read anything beyond the abstract, but abstracts include hypothesis and results. (Also, many researchers will send you an article if you directly email them. They make zero money off publishing.)

PubMed does have lots of rat and mice studies which makes perfect sense, as they’re lab research animals so easily accessible and quality of life is a concern. They also travel through spaces barely wide enough for their bodies, using whiskers go get a sense of the space, and communicate with their whiskers, so lots of good stuff there.

It’s a weekend, it’s a pandemic, I don’t mean to be upsetting people with my arguments/discussion, I’m just a little low on things to keep me busy, and I’ve been scratching my head on this for years. I think I’ll withdrawal. If somebody does find an equine study, please DM it to me or tag me and hopefully I’ll see it. Thanks!

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Right, exactly. That’s why I really don’t understand why people are so upset. It could be harmful so why wouldn’t you just not do it just to be safe? “The look” shouldn’t be more important to you than the horse’s well being.

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Thankfully it’s only a rule for FEI competitions, not USEF national competitions. I can only imagine the magnitude of the uproar if the Saddlebred and Arabian folks were told they couldn’t clip muzzles. The Hunter people can still clip all they’d like as well.

Apparently the USEF vets don’t have access to the “studies”? I wonder if the designation of the muzzle hairs and the hairs around the eyes as “sensory” was enough for the FEI to make the rule and that there are no actual “studies”.

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I got no dog in this fight since I don’t compete, but I’ve always said my horse is European styled. Full whiskers and a banged tail (people at my barn are pleasure or h/j and just about die when I bang her tail).

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I’ll ask my vet if she thinks clipping whiskers is a serious horse welfare issue, and go on that.

Since vets etc don’t seem to think this is critical enough to publish a single study about it.

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That’s why people say “that’s my n=1” - it means “this isn’t a big controlled study, just an anecdote, so take it as such”

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Maybe search Google Scholar. That’s where I get my peer-reviewed scientific journal references.

For the record, I don’t clip my horse’s muzzle whiskers for shows (or any other time) because I don’t think it’s needed. I don’t think it makes horses look better or fancier, but that’s just my opinion. I don’t think that fancy horses will look badly at all with their whiskers.

Just my opinion, but I do not credit the vets as experts on whisker-clipping. It’s not something they deal with. Unless one of them wants to publish even a popular online-mag article explaining the factual, evidence-based reasons for their expertise, the comments of the vets sound like just general opinion-ating to me. When an owner asks for the equine vets opinion on any equine subject, including things the vet has no experience with, they will get said opinion, but it isn’t a scientific verdict, just a general opinion.

I have never heard a vet give examples of welfare-harm done by whisker-clipping. I have known many whisker-clipped horses and have seen no difference in their welfare. No bumping into things, no problems with their food or eating, nothing. And I’ve watched carefully for something that would give a clear go/no-go signal. Never seen it.

I believe the FEI vets are just getting in front of a public perception movement. There are more and more people in the general public who know nothing about the subject but are nonetheless anxious to tell others how to do things, re live animals. The FEI is coping with this world and they see that there has already been a law on whisker-clipping in Germany. It’s not a hill the FEI thinks is worth dying on. Give this one away, and it may take scrutiny off other things where the FEI is far more adverse to interference.

Just imo.

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And posters keep referring to “the experts” but can’t give a name of even one.

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What do you mean by “tackleboxes”? Do you mean a whole tack trunk’s worth of bridlework?

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Yeah, like this.

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oh I wish Equine Canada would go after these set ups too. People are eventing BN in this…

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