I am looking at a potential project horse listed as an Appendix QH. The current owner claims she doesn’t have the papers (which in itself is not a problem for me since a) it’s a gelding, b) I am not interested in doing breed shows) because the papers “are still with the previous owner”.
She apparently bought the horse from a boarding facility who ended up being stuck with the horse when the original owner went to jail. Now, I don’t know the details of how she bought the horse from the boarding facility but my question is: since the original owner still has the papers, is he still the “legal owner” of said horse?
Depends on the state and the stableman’s lien laws in that state. If the horse wasn’t sold in line with that law, the previous owner may be able to reclaim the horse.
Here in Colorado, horses must be sold at auction to satisfy a lien. They may not be sold privately.
If they have a Bill of Sale from the original owner, and they give you a bill of sale. It is yours. Or if they have a legal document from the court awarding them the horse. I would want a paper trail.
It would not be the first time someone bought, improved, and loved a horse, only to find it snatched away from them.
Did any of the previous owners since the jailed owner have proper Bills of Sale? Did the BO legally obtain ownership from the Jailed owner (a legal lien filed with the Court, etc)? Was there a Bill of Sale between the BO and current owner?
The person who’s name is on the bill of sale is the owner.
There should be a paper trail regarding the seizure of the horse, double check to make sure its all in order before purchase and you should be fine, maybe talk to the barn that seized the horse and see what they have to say.
[QUOTE=Lambchop;7699459]
The person who’s name is on the bill of sale is the owner. [/QUOTE]
Errrr…
Not necessarily. If the sale of the horse wasn’t legal, a bill of sale won’t mean anything.
If the lien wasn’t processed in line with the state law, the sale may not be legal.
What do you bet the papers are nowhere to be found, anyway?
I agree, I would want a paper trail. Could end up being an expensive project horse if you have to go the legal route when the original owner gets out of jail and wants their horse back.
I dunno-- alternate viewpoint here:
I took a chance on a murky bill of sale situation for a horse that had been abandoned by a boarder for 6+months. A friend who boarded there called one day to ask if I could possibly take in this horse because BO had gotten a stableman’s lien and was taking her to auction the next day. The other boarders were upset, so BO told them that if they found a home for the mare that very day, he’d sell her for $1. I got a handwritten BoS that he did not keep a copy of. And you know what, I don’t feel a bit bad about getting that horse out of that situation, despite the murky documents. I had independent verification from my friend that the horse had indeed been abandoned, so I was confident that some caring former owner was not being cheated out of her horse. And I could live with the low risk that someone would eventually come looking (to whom I’d say “Prove it.”)
How about this…contact the AQHA to get in contact with the original owner? Perhaps the owner isn’t really in jail and maybe looking for their horse? Or maybe they are in jail and you can get their name so you can look them up?
In a ssimilar situation involving a car we bought for my DD, the owner was a firefighter and saw an ad on CL I had looking for a particular type of car that he had. Mr. Chachie and I went and looked at it, liked it and felt comfortable enough with the guy that when he said he didn’t have the title, we still bought the car. Wrote an explicit bill of sale, made it very well known that my dad was a cop and took the car home. Well 2 weeks later we still didn’t have the title and were getting nervous. Guy was saying the loan company hadn’t released title yet but title should be here any day.So I called his bank and verified his story.
I say this because I had enough info on the previous owner that when I explained the story, the bank was happy to oblige with my request.
You could probably do the same with the AQHA.
Where is the original owner (state and in jail) and how would the original owner know how to track you down? And not every boarding agreement gone bad ends in court documents. If the seller has papers from the boarding facility from when they bought the horse I would think you would be good. How long has seller had horse?
I’ve had my purebred dog for 8 years… never got a BoS, never got the papers from the breed, and doubt I could locate my canceled check. Does the seller/breeder still own my dog? Why would a horse be any different than my dog?
[QUOTE=gottagrey;7699608]
I’ve had my purebred dog for 8 years… never got a BoS, never got the papers from the breed, and doubt I could locate my canceled check. Does the seller/breeder still own my dog? Why would a horse be any different than my dog?[/QUOTE]
Was your dog sold to you to settle a debt against the original owner?
If the answer is “no,” then we’re talking about two drastically different situations.
Lien laws are VERY SPECIFIC about what must be done for the sale of the property to be legal. If those conditions are not met, the property may be considered stolen. The OP is right to be concerned here and it would behoove her to investigate the stableman’s lien law in the relevant state and confirm that the horse was legally sold per the law.
I believe that most registries also have a method for reissuing the papers in circumstances such as these?
[QUOTE=Simkie;7699668]
Was your dog sold to you to settle a debt against the original owner?
If the answer is “no,” then we’re talking about two drastically different situations.
Lien laws are VERY SPECIFIC about what must be done for the sale of the property to be legal. If those conditions are not met, the property may be considered stolen. The OP is right to be concerned here and it would behoove her to investigate the stableman’s lien law in the relevant state and confirm that the horse was legally sold per the law.
I believe that most registries also have a method for reissuing the papers in circumstances such as these?[/QUOTE]
good point, to add that each state has different laws regarding livestock/boarding liens. Where I live I believe it’s 3 months, then you have to give public notice to auction off horse. I wouldn’t be tracking down the former owner either as that could open up a can of worms
[QUOTE=Simkie;7699463]
Errrr…
Not necessarily. If the sale of the horse wasn’t legal, a bill of sale won’t mean anything.
If the lien wasn’t processed in line with the state law, the sale may not be legal.[/QUOTE]
Which is why I also suggested checking the paper trail and potentially discussing the issue with the BO that seized the horse.
Paper Trail is a must
In a situation like this not only should you follow the paper trail to find out…also keep one yourself.
I kept a paper trail when involved in a strange and sadly unneccessary drama about 2 years ago, I kept every receipt and cancelled check, email, text, facebook message etc… and I still have them to this day…and if something falls apart or you have to deal with something unfortunate…at least you are covered in the fact you have proof of your involvement and intent. People can rant and rave and lie through their teeth…but truth through evidence and proof can’t be stomped out…I hope for your sake and the horses sake everything works out.
[QUOTE=Simkie;7699668]
Lien laws are VERY SPECIFIC about what must be done for the sale of the property to be legal. If those conditions are not met, the property may be considered stolen. The OP is right to be concerned here and it would behoove her to investigate the stableman’s lien law in the relevant state and confirm that the horse was legally sold per the law.[/QUOTE]
THIS!! You may be able to ‘acquire’ the animal, but that doesn’t mean you are doing so legally. If the people who originally sold the horse didn’t follow the proper legal protocols I would be walking away. While the odds of the original owner tracking you down are small, the opportunity for heartbreak (and expensive legal fees) remains.
It amazes (and saddens) me when people take these kinds of matters into their own hands when they are clear, simple and legal ways of solving the problem. Perhaps not the case in this situation, but in others described here and elsewhere.
I wouldn’t focus so much on the ‘papers’ as much as the sale of the horse from the BO who sold to Seller to now potentially the OP. If the BO has legit paperwork from taking horse for nonpayment to the Seller.I’d also wonder what the time frame is… if it’s been several years I doubt the owner would come calling, but you never know - all it could take would be a photo on FB
In all practicality, folks, the barn sold the horse to person a, and now person a is wanting to sell the horse to person b, the original poster.
There’s probably no way the original owner could track this horse down to person B, unless they were really persistent (or the horse is staying in the original barn where it was seized from jailed person).
It’s a grade horse that’s going down the line. I think the culpability for stolen property is either on the barn, or the second owner, not the OP.
Who has not yet bought the horse – might not be worth it. Why is the second owner selling it, anyway? You said “project horse” – you might just want to pass given the history, since there are lots of project horses out there with less murky ownership histories.
One more thing, stories get changed in the telling … who knows what the actual story is about who owned the horse, who has the papers, etc. One thing you can count on is they are lost now, unless you get really lucky.
[QUOTE=Kwill;7700541]
It’s a grade horse that’s going down the line. I think the culpability for stolen property is either on the barn, or the second owner, not the OP.[/QUOTE]
Sure, the culpability wouldn’t be on person b in this case, but if the lien wasn’t handled in a legal manner, person b might still find herself out of a horse, with no money returned.
No any different than an original owner leasing a horse to leaser, leaser selling the horse illegally to person a and person a, thinking they have a clear title on the horse, selling to person b. Original owner can still come back and reclaim the horse. Person b is usually SOL and out the horse and the dollars.
I agree that it sounds unlikely that original owner in this case would come back and reclaim the horse, or even be able to find it. But if the lien wasn’t done appropriately, the risk is still there.
OP, do you live in a brand inspection state? If you do, and the inspection paperwork is all in order, that’s a pretty good indication that everything is legit.
Depending on price—I might just go ahead and take my chances that proper legal options were taken by the origional boarding facility even if a paper trail is not available. Mostly I say this because if the origional owner were still interested in the horse they would be doing something to get it back by now (even from jail they could have a relative or friend looking for this horse if the owner really cared). And, the fact that this is a “project” horse, tells me the origional owner didn’t have a lot of time and $ invested in the horse to begin with and thus not likely to care enough to try to find the horse. You are the one who has to make up your own mind how much the risk is worth it to you.
Yes, my gut reaction was to run in the other direction as this seemed a little complicated - even if he is looking like a potentially lovely horse in other respects.
Thank you all for the - very educational - answers! Who knew there is so much diversity, even from state to state?
