Who will train the horses? plus, the rebuttal

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I make well below $75K (don’t own a horse). I wish I did so I could at least part-lease a horse. I’d also like to donate more to charity, pay for more things to be done for me I can’t do well myself and hate doing (like cleaning my house, which would employ someone). I’d like another pet or two and to travel more.

I’m not saying the happiest people are the wealthiest, but I could definitely find productive and useful ways to spend 2X to 3X that that weren’t just frippery.

Perhaps at the very highest level of the spectrum money begets the need to spend more money, like entertaining rich friends and maintaining multiple horses but I think it’s a bit silly to say (again, especially on a horse board) that everything over $75K won’t add to happiness.

Re: changing ideas–I remember being aghast years ago when I saw a rank beginner hose off a horse and turn him out in his field without scraping him, having it drilled into me this would just heat the horse up. Now we know it’s just a myth (and it never made sense to me), but I was aghast! (Admittedly, she also complained about having to pick hooves, so my opinion of her was biased).

[foggybok]

@chestnutmarebeware

I read an interesting article about happiness several months ago. The premise was that it’s only very recently that happiness became an expectation of life, and that there was no legitimate reason for this elusive goal. The author went on to say that this unrealistic quest for “happiness” is probably driving many of today’s issues like overspending on luxuries, drug use and the high divorce rate.

I think aiming for contentment most of the time is a much healthier outlook.

My DH has always said something similar.

I think if people are “happy” all the time, then happy becomes normal and they search for new ways to be happy. I think you need a range of emotions to be emotionally healthy. You can’t just be happy all the time.

Contentment is a good goal

[subk]

I certainly understand Lesley’s reaction. 10-15 years ago I audited a jumper emerging athlete clinic taught by Melanie Smith Taylor and Linda Allen. I’ve written about it on COTH BB on multiple occasions. It was eye popping and thought provoking considering these were among some of the best under 21 jumper riders in the country.

When asked to do basic dressage these kids couldn’t ride out of a paper bag. They were terrible. When they came back in the afternoon to jump they were excellent 3 strides in front, over, and 3 strides after a jump. Although most couldn’t ride a turn without a popped shoulder, but by god they made sure they had the change–even if everything else was crooked as a snake.

I don’t know if the kids were bored–they were too far away as it was stadium seating to see. But it wasn’t very hard to tell that some of them were less than impressed with these two icons as they failed to execute some of the most basic instructions. “Ride down the long side, at the flag pole do a 20m circle.” …wandering around the end of the arena…

But here’s the deal, and here’s where Lesley got hung up: Eventers are totally stuck on this idea that there is a direct correlation between quality dressage and quality jumping. We believe dressage is an absolute essential to jump–even though we are the only jumping sport that thinks that way. Sure most big time jumper riders looking for every edge do some dressage. The hoi poi of jumper-world not so much.

As an eventer the first time you see the disconnect it’s shocking.

[Xanthoria]

@DownYonder

If you are wrapping so that the velcro tab points to the back of the leg, your wrapping direction is the same direction as a clock. If you are wrapping so the tab points to front of the leg, your direction is the opposite - hence counter-clockwise.

What if the Velcro tab ends up on the inside of the leg? It’ll then point the “wrong” way

I was always taught that you buckle / Velcro / wrap boots and bandages front to back so the fastenings are less likely to come undone. Horses legs usually move forwards and long grass etc could catch under fastenings going the other way and undo them. 🤷

Anyway I’m sure it’s all an old wives tale. Just like standing up when a horse pees. But many still do that!

[Willesdon]

@subk

… We believe dressage is an absolute essential to jump–even though we are the only jumping sport that thinks that way. Sure most big time jumper riders looking for every edge do some dressage. The hoi poi of jumper-world not so much…

The charming old adage “There are many ways to skin a cat” comes to my mind. The German school of riding (and therefore much of Europe) has always emphasized basic training, aka dressage, as the foundation for all other disciplines, based on a long tradition of training military conscripts for the cavalry. Ingrid Klimke can turn her hand to top level dressage as easily as eventing, Jung can show jump at international level as well as being an eventing superstar. By contrast, a 19th century French observer sadly commented “in England, there is no artistic riding, only sporting riding” and I’m old enough to recall the days when dressage was a niche interest of a very few slightly eccentric people because British and Irish horse sports involved speed over fences, such as foxhunting and point to points. Then eventing became truly international in the 1980s and for a couple of decades we Brits never won anything. The Australians, New Zealanders and then the Germans became dominant. The German team employed Chris Bartle, a Brit, to teach them how to ride fast xc. British riders learnt to do Dressage (Carl Hester was an eventer before moving over). I think even everyday riders have now discovered that a well trained horse is more adjustable and balanced, making xc easier. Scores over 40 are an exception even at the lowest levels of competition. The news is spreading wider. Race horse trainers now use Eventers to school their horses over jumps because then the horses jump better, have fewer falls and don’t get injured. Showjumpers now have such technical courses that the balance, straightness and adjustability of the animal is crucial to success. Except that here, in the land of ponies, we do have kids who learn to “gallop and shoot” because the ponies will jump a house while the child holds on. Many junior riders can’t make the move up to horses because they lack the basics. Even that is changing with better coaching.

I suspect the American H/J model of business prioritizes getting clients over fences rather than teaching the boring stuff aka dressage.

[Willesdon]

@Xanthoria

I was always taught that you buckle / Velcro / wrap boots and bandages front to back so the fastenings are less likely to come undone. Horses legs usually move forwards and long grass etc could catch under fastenings going the other way and undo them. 🤷

It only needs to happen once for the lesson to be learnt and for the “correct way” to be reinforced. The knowledge is derived from foxhunting where galloping around the countryside and jumping anything in the way tests equipment quite thoroughly. I also habitually check all my straps are in the keepers because a cheekpiece coming undone …

[Pennywell_Bay]

I[quote=“subk, post:189, topic:786340”]
It was eye popping and thought provoking considering these were among some of the best under 21 jumper riders in the country.
[/quote]

I don’t know about 10-15 years ago- but I do not know anyone who submitted and did NOT get accepted so maybe some of the “best” do make it, but if you submit everything on time I’m pretty sure you are in.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@Willesdon

I suspect the American H/J model of business prioritizes getting clients over fences rather than teaching the boring stuff aka dressage.

This was my experience when I was getting back to riding. It didn’t even occur to me to look for eventing or dressage barns, and I just kind of Googled the closest barns to me, which were all h/j barns. I knew I wasn’t confident in the saddle, but despite being a very nervous and wobbly rerider, the instructors wanted me to trot over fences after a few lessons. I actually remember asking, “can we just do a lesson on the flat,” completely naively, and being told by the trainer, “I don’t even understand how I would do that.”

Now, obviously these were not-great barns. But I will say, many, many years later even now I do see kids from certain far more well-heeled barns with excessively braced-down heels and a “position” but not a seat.

There are absolutely fabulous, fluid riders, of course, who specialize in hunters, jumpers, and went through the Big Eq who could kick some serious dressage ass with a little refresher, but I think if you stumble upon the “wrong” instructors, there can be a focus on short-term payoffs (jumping bigger fences, a pretty position) versus long-term gains as a lifetime rider.

[phoenixrises]

yeah I struggled to find it, but I KNOW I read the original study, but couldn’t find it.

[Jealoushe]

I struggle with finding studies after I read them too lol I need to start bookmarking them or something!

[subk]

It was my understanding at the time that it was an invitational only event. I think it was a sanctioned event but it was Melanie Taylor Smith’s pet project and Linda Allen was on a high just off an Olympic course design. I understood at the time it was considered quite the thing to be invited.

Maybe they weren’t the “best,” Pennywell Bay. But there was no question that these kids could ride over fences really, really well. Or that they had the stuff to be incredibly successful in the ring. (So what the horse were coming of the turn with a shoulder popped, they were still jumping the lights out.) They were jumping the poles better than any kid I had ever seen in the eventing YR program no doubt. They were quieter with their hands had exceptional and more consistent canters and incredible tact. And the horses were pretty incredible, too. But maybe 2 of them had any concept of contact, connectedness and thoroughness–the difference in them and the others was significant. I was told that some of the kids had to scrounge around for the required snaffle and had never ridden their horse in one.

That was what was so stunning. After the “flat work” portion of the day I was horrified to think these kids were coming back to jump big stuff. I thought it was going to be a yard sale. Surely anyone jumping plus 1m NEEDED to be able to competently put a horse on the bit? Right? Right?! Apparently not. I never would have believed it if I hadn’t seen it.

Maybe it has all changed in the last decade. But I doubt it. And the more parents are willing to spend the less likely it will change. I also don’t think we’ll have any problem finding people to train up horses–this actually shows that someone’s been doing a good job of it all along.

[Cowboy_Girl]

I absolutely agree and have witnessed it first hand multiple times.

[wanderlust]

@subk

That was what was so stunning. After the “flat work” portion of the day I was horrified to think these kids were coming back to jump big stuff. I thought it was going to be a yard sale. Surely anyone jumping plus 1m NEEDED to be able to competently put a horse on the bit? Right? Right?! Apparently not. I never would have believed it if I hadn’t seen it.

As you have seen with your own eyes, putting a horse “on the bit” or riding in snaffles has nothing to do with competently jumping around big tracks in good balance with good distances and keeping the rails up. “These kids” know how to shape a turn for the right pace and balance, see a variety of distances depending on the type of fence AND put the horse there, keep the right amount of connection without interfering over the fence, and generally have exceptional body control to, over, and after a jump.

I really wish eventers would knock it off with the ongoing trope of “all these h/j people can’t do dressage and only buy made horses who quietly pack them around big jumps.” Especially in this day and age when it is so easy to go look up someone’s rounds at WEC on clipmyhorse and see that they have no business criticizing anyone.

[Larksmom]

FWIW, just a mention here, as a former eventer, when I look at the Chronicle, at the hj riders, the photos seem to show them all over the horses back. To me they look awful. When I see the photos of eventers, they look really good.

[enjoytheride]

Let’s not get into bashing different riding styles over the fence. While HJ allows for a in air style that can trend toward jumping ahead, you can also say that eventers often get left behind, getting their horses in the face and landing on their backs.

[Larksmom]

I0 years ago, they looked different. they weren’t all over the horse. This is just my casual observation, and I know nothing about hj. But they do look awful to me. And the photos of the eventers just don’t look that way.

[wanderlust]

Eventers have been complaining about photos of h/j riders since, well, as long as I’ve been on this board which is over 20 years. I don’t understand how a moment-in-time photo has anything to do with quality of riding? Why does it matter? In those photos, can you tell if they are they missing/chipping and hitting the horse in the mouth? Or if they are they behind the motion and whomping it’s back on the way down? Or are they generally in balance or a little forward with a nice release and a happy horse?

Perhaps try watching a video.

[supershorty628]

@subk

these were among some of the best under 21 jumper riders in the country.

Carry on with the h/j bashing, of course, but this is an inaccurate representation of the EAP (in so many ways, honestly). In fact, the EAP specifically restricts participation to riders who have not shown at higher than 1.35m, unless this has changed in recent years. I believe it was only the first year or two of the program where that restriction didn’t exist. It’s certainly not a representation of “the best under 21 jumper riders in the country,” nor is that the purpose of the program.

But, you know, h/j bad or whatever. You do you.

[vxf111]

I’ve been on this board since at least 2000 and we have been having this “my discipline is better than your discipline” discussion, citing the SAME REASONS this whole time. So if hunters suck the big one it’s certainly not a “kids these days” issue because y’all sloppy run and gun eventers and stick up the butt dressage queens have been complaining about hunters laying on the neck for TWENTY YEARS OR MORE. /s in case it wasn’t clear

[fledermaus]

@Live_Wire

Please tell me how I had luck or access?

Are you white? Do you speak English as a first language? Are you brighter than average? Do you have monetizable talents? Are you naturally pretty organized and have the ability to follow through on tasks? Is it easy for you to focus? Do you lack physical disabilities, learning disorders, PTSD from trauma? No need to take care of a dependent child or disabled adult at home? All of these things give you advantage that many do not have.

In my rather long life I’ve seen how some people who seem to have plenty of advantages to start out with, fail because of various deficits which were not obvious at the outset – they’re gullible, or disorganized, or have great difficulty assessing what is important and what isn’t (this is surprisingly common), all kinds of things, which they are often quite aware of but no matter how they try, they cannot change. People who don’t have these deficits, who can set doable goals and then work in a focused way to achieve them, often believe that anyone could do what they did if they work hard enough. They are wrong. Not only wrong, but lack the ability to observe and empathize. The people I’m talking about work just as hard as successful people. That isn’t their problem. There are a whole lot of people like this, as far as I can tell.