Who's Next..... Isabell Werth suspended for using Fluphenazine

[slc2]

Yes, that’s quite true, and I have also mentioned several times now, that I don’t think anyone can assume human and anmal react the same way to any med (and additionally, that even humans don’t react the same to these drugs). And yes, I understand that just because I saw a patient be sick in 2 weeks after dosage, the drug can still be detectable in a horse; that wasn’t my point, my point was that it isn’t all that set what these drugs do to any given individual.

There is some enzyme, p340? Something like that? I can’t remember, that causes humans to eliminate drugs very fast. If people vary in drug clearing times, horses may too. If the vet’s only experience was in animals with faster clearing times(if it exists), perhaps his advice on clearing times is based on experience, not research (not a ton of research on a drug that is illegal and isn’t supposed to be used in competition).

But if we know all that, and it’s so easy to find out, the knowledge is so ubiquitous that a bunch of ammy riders in USA are as familiar with it as people here are, even having used it, and if in fact all this is such common knowledge, why wouldn’t Isabel know it. She certainly is more in that world and would know a lot about what people are giving horses - horse people talk to each other about these things and vets talk to horse people etc.

If it’s so stupid to show in two weeks and so easy to know not to, why would Isabel think otherwise?

[nhwr]

If you are referring to cytochrome p450, any organism that is based on aerobic metabolism (including horses) uses this enzyme complex.

I would offer that IW “thought otherwise” because possibly in the past it worked for her.

[slc2]

What she said in interview was that the horse had been treated once or twice and only recently, so I don’t think the above is the case.

What she said in the interview was the one thing I couldn’t believe someone in her position would do…that she had no idea about this medication, that they were using a long acting medication, that she found out about it from Americans after the fact, and that her vet was just wrong, she simply did not have any other information about this medication than what her vet told her, and he was just wrong. There is so much information out there, and it is so easy to look things up or talk to someone. Most of the people here are amateurs that ride locally at a lower level, and a huge percentage of people here appear to do a great deal of research about treatments and medications before even considering them.

[freestyle2music]

[QUOTE=slc2;4195633]
What she said in interview was that the horse had been treated once or twice and only recently, so I don’t think the above is the case.

What she said in the interview was the one thing I couldn’t believe someone in her position would do…that she had no idea about this medication, that they were using a long acting medication, that she found out about it from Americans after the fact, and that her vet was just wrong, she simply did not have any other information about this medication than what her vet told her, and he was just wrong. There is so much information out there, and it is so easy to look things up or talk to someone. Most of the people here are amateurs that ride locally at a lower level, and a huge percentage of people here appear to do a great deal of research about treatments and medications before even considering them.[/QUOTE]

No she said once !.

It was mainly because the blacksmith couldn’t handle
Whisper to give him new Nikes

Next to this the professors of several universities have started battling about the substance now.

With three cases in one week I think it’s time to get somebody with practical knowledge on the board of the FEI/FN/DOKR etc… Maintaining the zero tolerance shortcut will certainly ruin the EQ-sport.

Theo

[carovet]

I was looking up something else and saw this in the usef drug and meds handbook
http://www.usef.org/documents/competitions/2007/2007DrugsMedsGuidelines.pdf

Depending upon the drug administration scenario, e.g., the formulation ofthe drug, the dose or doses administered, the frequency of administration, the route or routes of administration, the weight of the horse or pony, the health condition of the animal, etc., it is possible that the following substances and their metabolites (byproducts) might remain detectable in the blood or urine sample of the animal for a number of days following the final administration of the substance, as follows:

long-acting tranquilizers and psychotropics, e.g., fluphenazine and reserpine…90 days

interesting difference from 6 days, eh?

[nhwr]

Actually from what I read if it is use repetitively clearance can take as long as 6 to 8 months.

http://books.google.com/books?id=q-26Cz4t-P0C&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=fluphenazine+horse&source=bl&ots=ljE8TwBDVU&sig=CIYMFm_Cu1CNmFjIC-QeBg4L3lU&hl=en&ei=V7NISsywGI_-tQPktaAo&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9

[Ambrey]

So have we established that the 2 years is not a real sentence but just a number someone threw out and the rest of us glaumed on to? She’s still awaiting final decision, right?

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=Ambrey;4196450]
So have we established that the 2 years is not a real sentence but just a number someone threw out and the rest of us glaumed on to? She’s still awaiting final decision, right?[/QUOTE]

The sentence can be up to two years I don’t think it has been decided yet.

[SGray]

perhaps someone could volunteer to give Werth a lesson in googling

[Kareen]

Or Theo on who is on the FEI/FN board. There’s a whole bunch of individuals with practical knowledge (whatever that would be) that are consulted in the process of establishing the guidelines which are revised every 4 years. Of course unless they all yell ‘hooray’ for medication and approve of pumping all kinds of foreign substances into competing horses they must all be morons and have no clue I guess that’s what you’re trying to imply?
Maybe those guidelines are meant for something different than to warrant you can show at any given time. They are mainly meant to establish a level playing field and make sure the horse’s interest is not discarded for the sake of $$ (which really is the only problem the zero-tolerance rule has to it).

[Kareen]

PS: Just for the record a) Prof. Schänzer is a specialist on analytics he is considered the analytic institution in this country and working for the biochemistry department of the Cologne University of Sports (in the first place nothing to do with animals let alone horses). b) Prof. Kietzmann is a pharmacologist holding a position as the chief lecturer at Hanover vet school.
Therefor I would expect their assessments of the case to be somewhat different. Would you really expect a professor in vet school to approve of any form of field-experimental medication involving a drug that is illegal to use on horses in Germany? Are you serious? The man teaches vet students and is supposed to tell them what they can and can not legally administer.

[freestyle2music]

You better post these remarks on a German forum, because that’s were the hanging take place.:lol: