As my screename suggests, I have American Saddlebreds. They come from much the same origins as Morgans, until you get the infusion that created the ability to gait. Standardbreds also started with much the same core breeds and stallions.
I saw Waseeka’s Nocturne when I was a kid, and he was lovely. However, I also saw his son, Waseeka’s In Command- who is basically the backbone in every single park type Morgan today- when I was a kid. I can still picture both, and I have to tell you that I would be hard pressed to believe that In Command wasn’t out of an ASB mare. He was an altogether different type from Nocturne- MUCH more like our ASBs. And, the proof is in what he produced, and how they used these horses in the ring.
We still have ASBs who are born with great bone, big chests, deep heart girths, and great attitudes. Generally, if they are not upheaded they also wind up in front of a buggy, because the Amish remain the largest end user of our horses. Sad, but true, as, unlike the marvelous Morgan people, our breed organization has never truly supported the breeders.
Sorry for the slight hijack- but I LOVED both Nocturne and In Command- but boy, were they different!!
This is the attitude of the (most recent) barn owner I have boarded with for 11 years. Which is why he has tried to talk me into buying a Tennessee Walking Horse, an Appaloosa mare, a supposedly Morgan/Arab cross (unregistered, weedy, and much smaller than advertised), a grade mare… I have been basically trail riding, so to him, ANY “good” horse is Good Enough, right? And for many people, that would be true.
I don’t like the modern Morgans that much, because I believe some breeders are/have been dishonest and passed off some of their horses as pure Morgans when they aren’t. Yes, that Morgan/Saddlebred cross might be flashy, might even be sweet, might be a good HUS, but I should accept the it as a purebred, when it is NOT? I can’t PROVE that some of the bloodlines aren’t what they are represented, but I can truly say I don’t like their type or look.
I am pretty much open to Sport Morgans; I like what I have seen in their type and breeding. I, too, like the old Government and Brunk lines (hard to find nowadays), whatever, as long as it does not have the bloodlines that I feel were misrepresented as “pure” after the Book was CLOSED.
I’m not sure what “coarse” means to people, as I think many of the refined “show” Morgans have some of the ugliest heads I have seen on Morgans. Many of the WWs have some of the prettiest, almost like the type you see on the old Crabbet-bred Arabians (NOT the show Arabians). And recently, when investigating one Morgan’s pedigree, I saw that an Arabian mare showed up pre-1900, I believe. So, maybe she (and others) contributed to the type of head I prefer to see in a Morgan horse.
My first (unregistered) Morgan was ridden western, hunter, and bareback. I rode her on trails, put her in costume, evented her, tried barrel racing, foxhunted, and skijorring with her. I can’t picture doing that with a show Morgan, which are more specialized and are what seem to be out there the most.
I bought an OTTB when that Morgan got older. I bought him to be an eventer, but a divorce crushed those plans. And I found out that he was lacking in just plain “fun” when that happened. He, too, was a specialist. I came to the realization that Morgans horses were like, “Oh, we can’t do ‘that’ anymore, so you want to try/change to something else? When do we start?” I think that I find that attitude in a Traditional Morgan.
Well, it’s almost 3:00 a.m., and I think I should probably go to bed now. I have been having fun reading about Morgans here on the board.
I’m sure you know that it was barn chatter that In Command was out of a Saddlebred. Lot of talk about how Miller’s Adel never produced another horse like him etc etc. But if you look at her pictures in the archive, she was a quality mare. The tell, to me, about Saddlebred breeding is that you often get the long, thin Saddlebred head. In Command most definitely had a nice Morgan head. But he had an exceptionally long neck, so the rest of his front end looked very Saddlebred-y. But his offspring came of age in the time of shennanigans, so who knows what happened with his offspring on? All I know is that I can still pick out a Nocturne offspring even tho he may be 4? generations away.
I only saw In Command when he was a junior horse, so don’t have a recollection of him as a mature stallion.
This is the attitude of the (most recent) barn owner I have boarded with for 11 years. Which is why he has tried to talk me into buying a Tennessee Walking Horse, an Appaloosa mare, a supposedly Morgan/Arab cross (unregistered, weedy, and much smaller than advertised), a grade mare… I have been basically trail riding, so to him, ANY “good” horse is Good Enough, right? And for many people, that would be true.
I don’t like the modern Morgans that much, because I believe some breeders are/have been dishonest and passed off some of their horses as pure Morgans when they aren’t. Yes, that Morgan/Saddlebred cross might be flashy, might even be sweet, might be a good HUS, but I should accept the it as a purebred, when it is NOT? I can’t PROVE that some of the bloodlines aren’t what they are represented, but I can truly say I don’t like their type or look.
I am pretty much open to Sport Morgans; I like what I have seen in their type and breeding. I, too, like the old Government and Brunk lines (hard to find nowadays), whatever, as long as it does not have the bloodlines that I feel were misrepresented as “pure” after the Book was CLOSED.
I’m not sure what “coarse” means to people, as I think many of the refined “show” Morgans have some of the ugliest heads I have seen on Morgans. Many of the WWs have some of the prettiest, almost like the type you see on the old Crabbet-bred Arabians (NOT the show Arabians). And recently, when investigating one Morgan’s pedigree, I saw that an Arabian mare showed up pre-1900, I believe. So, maybe she (and others) contributed to the type of head I prefer to see in a Morgan horse.
[/quote]
I would never advise someone to buy a horse they didn’t like!
My first horse was a Morgan and he was the best horse ever. He took me from learning how to trot all the way to 1st level dressage and gave me my love for dressage. He could have taken me farther if he wasn’t 25 when we hit 1st. That was his limit at that point. But he could tote around a walk trot rider in the morning and then up his energy for a hunter hack class with me and then do pony rides after. Some of my fondest memories were bombing around the cornfields near my house all afternoon.
He was a classic government line from UMass and looked a lot like his father, Windcrest Highlander. He could hold his own at straight dressage shows and tended to blow the other dressage Morgans out of the water. But I think that was more of a testament to how correctly he was trained (which I take no credit for) rather than being especially fancy. But seriously, best horse ever, especially for my first horse. On my list of horses I hope to have someday is a sport Morgan that I can do some dressage and eventing with.
Given that the vast majority of riders are never going to be riding at the top level of their discipline, is this really a problem? How many people advance beyond the lower levels of jumping, eventing, dressage and the equivalents in Western disciplines? I do, however, see a great many owners with beautiful warmbloods of which they are scared, if not downright terrified, horses that only their trainers can ride well. Being over-horsed is no fun.
Certainly not impossible esp in that era, but In Command also has Upway full siblings Ben Don bottom and Quietude top through so King Benn so has some Peavine/Bourbon (aka saddlebred) lines.
My American Saddlebreds respectfully suggest to you that not all top quality ASBs have that “long narrow head”. I have one here by an ASB stud who was the leading sire of show horses for nine years straight, and she has a lovely broad forehead, and HUGE eyes. Also, one by the leading sire of five gaited champions in the history of the breed- and he has an even more broad forehead, huge eyes, and and shorter face. They just wanted you to know…
You are 100% right. Over 90% of people will likely never move past the lower levels of their chosen discipline but the vast majority of the people had a deep down fantasy that they will and that’s how they choose a horse. There are also lots of trainers who would love to take that big commission and get paid for training rides when those people can’t ride what they bought.
The reason Morgans aren’t more popular is they are too rare and too expensive and that’s because breeders actually care where their horses end up. Thoroughbreds and quarterhorses will always be a way more common choice for an all around horse or a lower level specialist because they are dirt cheap by comparison. The racing industry finances the breeding on those horses and since many are sold young as yearlings the breeder isn’t going to take the loss when a large percentage of them ultimately ship out in meat trucks or are bought for $1000 on craigslist. Just take a look at how many TBs are listed on sites like CANTER. Most are probably competent for lower levels of disciplines with training and they are all being sold/adopted at a loss to the owner, which is not something a small Morgan farm can afford to do and stay in business.
I’m not saying everyone involved in TB and QH sales are dicks who don’t care where their horses go, I’m just saying the volume and finances of the situation is very different and they effectively flood the market in the US and drive down what consumers think of as a “reasonable price” for a horse that isn’t a fancy imported breed.
This just proves my point even more. There are dozens of 22 yo QHs and TBs that could be had for free on Facebook or craigslist. It’s not a bad thing for Morgans. I’d rather know the few that are out there are less likely to end up in terrible situations.
:yes: Same! I’m also from NE and have a similar experience.
Sadly, the bigger breeders have retired… now there’s a dearth of them locally. They are a bit more expensive than your average QH and arabian which I think makes them less common in terms of people looking for an all-around horse. Since they are not bred in the same numbers, are a bit hard to come by, it makes sense we don’t see them as frequently as they deserve.
I’ve ridden my fair share of them and they can come all over the board in terms of type… but their temperaments are usually very similar: honest and full of go. I don’t see a lot of saddle-seat bred ones here, but the morgans I do find tend to be too small for most riders (in the 14h-15h range)… While I am fine with a 15H horse, I find most adult riders feel a bit more comfortable (maybe because they are concerned with their weight) with a little more horse under them.
They tend to have great brains. I worked with a driving team as as a WS one summer, and we had them going from only driving-broke to doing XC courses at the end of the summer. They are intelligent and honest. Both of them were sold to (timid) adult amateurs for LL eventing.
There are a few people breeding them for dressage and sport - they can have the right trot, but I find some morgan canters are a bit tight. There is an incidence of KS in the breed; if you can find one that has the right canter they can be extremely competitive in dressage.
One of my favorite horses to date was a little morgan at Stoneleigh Burnham… I loved him to pieces - he was a great little horse. Cute as a button and athletic! Sorry the picture is so small… this is an old photo, I was 14 in it. :yes:
I can only speak to issue with my Morgan, but she her canter was just flat and on the forehand. It was very hard to collect. It felt noticeably harder for her to balance while cantering and it was never as comfortable as her trot. They’re not really built for dressage, though she was a star at Second Level and under. I did some schooling show classes in hunter though and a judge came up to me to tell me how much she loved my horse’s look and movement, including canter.
I had a thoroughbred who, when I bought him, cantered like his front end was in a ditch. I did transition work and other exercises with him and he ended up having a nine canter. So they can start out flat or worse, and exercise can improve that gait.
Can we differentiate between size and build?
Height in hands, yes a lot of people are in the under 6 feet category, so a shorter horse suits them.
But lots of Americans are overweight, so want a horse that can carry that weight (or looks like it can).
I know that was a factor with my 15h Arab, it stopped my shorter, heavier family member from riding him.
Old style Morgan’s look like they can handle the weight, as do QH and draft crosses. The slimmer more refined horses don’t look like they can comfortably.
The USEA lists 15 horses with “Statesman” in their name, of which 8 are Morgans.
The one I knew personally was Statesman Serenade (Sire: Chief of State | Dam: Nodaway Tilli). She belonged to one of our neighbors. When my sister was riding and training professionally (approx 2000 - 2010) they hired my sister to train her as an eventer, and Gillian said she was great fun. She was then sold to a teenager up in Massachusetts who had quite a lot of success with her, both in Eventing and in the Morgan shows.
Of course! And my mare’s canter improves a lot over three years of dressage. There is only so much you can do to improve on build - there was nothing “wrong” with her canter, but she was also not going to ever do one tempis or canter pirouettes. Just like how my Hanoverian now will never be as brave and calm on a trail by herself as the Morgan mare. Differently bred skills.
Another thing I empathize is how sound they tend to be. Good feet too.
