Why do Reiners spin?

[spotnnotfarm]

@mvp

Well, I got your ignorance attack right here.

If you want to find lame horses, I’d sooner look in the roping pen than I would the Western Pleasure pen.

And you might be surprised how many roping horses never canter on the right lead.

As a cowboy explained it to me, “if you have a roping horse, you have a hock problem.” I had asked him about whether or not those guys do all the vet work and joint injections that I would do for my show horse. He said that this wasn’t so common until you got to “the big guys in Texas.” He explained that a roping horse’s job is so hard and short-- that sprint to the cow part-- that he can sublimate pain for that amount of time. But ask a horse to spend 7 or 8 minutes in a rail class where he’s got to display even, slow gaits? You’d better have him sound.

I agree that the worst of the WP horses’ movement is so distorted that I can’t see soundness vs. lameness. IME, when you put those horses on a lunge line and don’t tell them where to put their head, you can do a lameness exam.

I am not sure what area of the country you are in. The ropers I am around take exceptional care of their horses. They get injected, massaged, chiropractic and anything else they need. I am not in Texas. They are taught to lope on both leads however, due to the nature of the job, they become one leaded. It has nothing to do with soundness.

[Salty]

My experience is the same as Spotnotfarm’s. The ropers around here take exceptional care of their horses in every respect. And as for hock problems, as my vet says, there are two types of horses: those with hock problems & those who will have hock problems.

[Brl_Racer_amp_More]

@Fin01

I still dont’ quite understand the spin and why.

Yes, the Puissance is an exaggeration of jumping – which was necessary for fox hunters and horses used as transportation. But that spin. I just dont see how spinning a horse 15x in a competition is an exaggeration of anything a cutting horse would do. Especially the ones who don’t do it well. Yikes.

I can’t even get into the western pleasure competition gates. And I wholeheartedly agree with YankeeDuchess’ comments above.

Ever been to a Tennessee Walker show?

I’ve always been around western style riding and I love watching a horse spin correctly. I agree with you though, why so many spins? I suppose to show that the horse will stay in the position for a fast spin? However sometimes I think speed wins over correctness. I’m ok with the amount of spins in the pattern, it’s the people that drill it with their horses over and over and over again that irritates me. I was taught to teach my horse to hunt down the spin, have them enjoy and like it so when I do ask for it I don’t have to ask a lot for speed. I see other’s that just spin their horses over and over again. You can tell the horse hates it’s job. BUT, we see that in every discipline.

I’ve never seen a Tennessee walker show, now you have me intrigued. I probably wouldn’t know what I was watching.

[Fin01]

@Brl Racer & More

I’ve never seen a Tennessee walker show, now you have me intrigued. I probably wouldn’t know what I was watching.

If you can see some horses starting to hate the spin, you’ll see what I mean about the walker shows.
Dont’ stand at the in-gate and watch the show vet “examine” the leg for swelling/ lameness. It’s a farce.

The baby walkers are just beautiful. It really is a natural gate they’re born with, that rack. But the humans interfere and instead of competing natural talent against natural talent, they add those damned shoes and sore the feet so they snap them up higher and higher. Which of course breaks them down quick.

Thanks for your reply on my thread.

[mvp]

@YankeeDuchess

What are you attacking me for? I was not the one who said Western horses in any Western disciple WERE lame, I said that as someone who knows nothing about Western Pleasure, in the few times I’ve seen Western Pleasure show classes, in both the jog and the lope, but especially the lope, to me the horse LOOKS lame. It is very bizarre to me that a show discipline would have the ideal for a gait be such that the horse looks lame.

When you say that you agree that in Western Pleasure classes “the movement is so distorted that I can’t see lameness vs soundness” you’re AGREEING with me.

I had imagined that there was some high falutin explanation as to why the lame looking lope was in fact beautiful and functional, of which I was ignorant, but so far no one has supplied one. You certainly haven’t, as you agreed with me.

OK, so I didn’t agree with you. To say I can’t distinguish lameness from soundness (when these horses are ridden vs. lunged… a part of my post you failed to acknowledge) is not the same thing as say that you and I agree that they look lame. I’m agnostic with respect to a WP horse’s soundness. You, however, conflated “looks lame” with “is lame” when you read my post. That’s a mistaken inference.

If you start with the premise that the “lame looking lope” is worth anything, I think your premise might be why you don’t get an answer from anyone “high falutin’” in WP world. You insult them twice just in the question!

[endlessclimb]

As long as we are being a little blunt here -

Can someone tell me of a pro or high level reining trainer that isn’t rough on their horses? Or does it come with the territory?

I have never seen a reiner not ridden with the jab jab, yank yank, method - along with the severe bend/counterbend exercises, violent backing when the whoa wasn’t enough, and excessive spur use on a spin when it wasn’t to the rider’s satisfaction.

They’re beautiful to watch once they’re finished, but the methods to get them there - yikes. Is that a result of futurity related pressures?

[mvp]

@spotnnotfarm

I am not sure what area of the country you are in. The ropers I am around take exceptional care of their horses. They get injected, massaged, chiropractic and anything else they need. I am not in Texas. They are taught to lope on both leads however, due to the nature of the job, they become one leaded. It has nothing to do with soundness.

Good question!

The cowboy who gave me his take was in sleepy little Central NY.

Cornell was nearby and the H/J crowd there had access to all the high-end vet care they needed and plenty of them ponied up for that. This guy had his own place (where one was not advised to send a horse for fear of the hinky fencing), and he roped locally. He also headed up a horse program at a local boarding school (of the reform variety, not the prep school variety). He was a good guy who called things as he saw them. There was/is a great range of horse keeping in that part of the state, so I think he was describing what he saw among the guys he roped with.

[Bluey]

@endlessclimb

As long as we are being a little blunt here -

Can someone tell me of a pro or high level reining trainer that isn’t rough on their horses? Or does it come with the territory?

I have never seen a reiner not ridden with the jab jab, yank yank, method - along with the severe bend/counterbend exercises, violent backing when the whoa wasn’t enough, and excessive spur use on a spin when it wasn’t to the rider’s satisfaction.

They’re beautiful to watch once they’re finished, but the methods to get them there - yikes. Is that a result of futurity related pressures?

That question is the same no matter what discipline you are talking about.
Some trainers are better horsemen, don’t need to go there, others are rougher trainers and don’t think anything to push horses into a fight.

I have seen them both, even at the olympic level, some that you wonder what bit them when they rough up a horse for the slightest “disobedience”.
Most trainers hopefully don’t go there.
Reining is no different, sorry that you only have seen rough trainers and not in other disciplines you have been watching.

I learned from a retired military officer and later in an European riding instructor program and in both, caring for and working with the horse came first.
I too have been appalled since then when I realized many trainers, especially in the US, maybe because they don’t work out of riding centers but private barns without anyone watching them “behind the barn”, appalled how little some respect horses.

I agree, coming from a horsemanship where horse’s mouth is sacred, where any jerking on the bit, that “bumping” some use today, would have been a reason for a stern warning and if caught at it again, some people just don’t get it, dismissed summarily.
There are times where you may have to get a little strong with the reins, like jumping a bigger tight course.
You are taught to not put the horse in those situations, train them well to respond without fighting you, so that is rare.
If you go there, you also learn that you have to apologize to the horse and be sure to work so that doesn’t has to happen.
Then there is the rare quirky horse that “has it’s moments” also, not always the rider’s or the horse training’s fault.

Once, working with a reining trainer, overbending and that kind of training was demonstrated.
It didn’t make much sense to me, so I asked about it, mentioning that we used to consider a horse behind the bit like that a very serious fault that was hard to correct, much less go there on purpose, as it was letting horse practice an avoidance.
Trainer explained with reining horses, in self carriage, horses didn’t depend on their bit for other than the lightest guidance, leg would take care of any avoidance and behind the bit.
It was that fine line reining training was looking for, a horse so responsive to leg and super light and responsive to hand, without slipping to using all that flexing for avoidance.
I said, “behind the bit” riding is against my religion.
I can do that requested performance fine, without needing to go to overbending the horse and proceeded to demonstrating just that.
Trainer said, ok, training is about the results, however you get there, is fine.
Some time later, reining trainer was showing interest in learning more about dressage, which I found interesting.

Another example, when certain western trainer started decades ago, what he was doing was decidedly rough.
He wanted a horse to back off, slinging ropes at it, hitting it with sticks, whatever it took for the horse to scoot around and get moving was the main goal.
That the horse was learning to resist throwing head up and scrambling without understanding what it was asked, why the person would at times lose it and get violent and then quit again was never addressed.
Because there was no other instruction around, that kind took hold and was repeated by others.
Today we know better, I hope, not so many will go there, but are learning more sensible ways to ask a horse to move over than just attacking them.

I agree in principle that some training and riding is not as considerate of horses as it should be.
I also think that trainers are in general getting light years better than they used to be, as it should be and that we will always be learning more.

Especially in reining, where horse’s attitude counts for points, where a horse that naturally carries pinned looking ears won’t place, that training be extra careful and considerate of the horse so it stays with that happy to work look is becoming even more important.
The movements themselves are becoming so competitive, mere technical details separate the best and that the horse is performing happily has weighed in lately, maybe making trainers consider how they can refine their training.

[Bluey]

Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
As long as we are being a little blunt here -

Can someone tell me of a pro or high level reining trainer that isn’t rough on their horses? Or does it come with the territory?

I have never seen a reiner not ridden with the jab jab, yank yank, method - along with the severe bend/counterbend exercises, violent backing when the whoa wasn’t enough, and excessive spur use on a spin when it wasn’t to the rider’s satisfaction.

They’re beautiful to watch once they’re finished, but the methods to get them there - yikes. Is that a result of futurity related pressures?

That question is the same no matter what discipline you are talking about.
Some trainers are better horsemen, don’t need to go there, others are rougher trainers and don’t think anything to push horses into a fight.

I have seen them both, even at the olympic level, some that you wonder what bit them when they rough up a horse for the slightest “disobedience”.
Most trainers hopefully don’t go there.
Reining is no different, sorry that you only have seen rough trainers and not in other disciplines you have been watching.

I learned from a retired military officer and later in an European riding instructor program and in both, caring for and working with the horse came first.
I too have been appalled since then when I realized many trainers, especially in the US, maybe because they don’t work out of riding centers but private barns without anyone watching them “behind the barn”, appalled how little some respect horses.

I agree, coming from a horsemanship where horse’s mouth is sacred, where any jerking on the bit, that “bumping” some use today, would have been a reason for a stern warning and if caught at it again, some people just don’t get it, dismissed summarily.
There are times where you may have to get a little strong with the reins, like jumping a bigger tight course.
You are taught to not put the horse in those situations, train them well to respond without fighting you, so that is rare.
If you go there, you also learn that you have to apologize to the horse and be sure to work so that doesn’t has to happen.
Then there is the rare quirky horse that “has it’s moments” also, not always the rider’s or the horse training’s fault.

Once, working with a reining trainer, overbending and that kind of training was demonstrated.
It didn’t make much sense to me, so I asked about it, mentioning that we used to consider a horse behind the bit like that a very serious fault that was hard to correct, much less go there on purpose, as it was letting horse practice an avoidance.
Trainer explained with reining horses, in self carriage, horses didn’t depend on their bit for other than the lightest guidance, leg would take care of any avoidance and behind the bit.
It was that fine line reining training was looking for, a horse so responsive to leg and super light and responsive to hand, without slipping to using all that flexing for avoidance.
I said, “behind the bit” riding is against my religion.
I can do that requested performance fine, without needing to go to overbending the horse and proceeded to demonstrating just that.
Trainer said, ok, training is about the results, however you get there, is fine.
Some time later, reining trainer was showing interest in learning more about dressage, which I found interesting.

Another example, when certain western trainer started decades ago, what he was doing was decidedly rough.
He wanted a horse to back off, slinging ropes at it, hitting it with sticks, whatever it took for the horse to scoot around and get moving was the main goal.
That the horse was learning to resist throwing head up and scrambling without understanding what it was asked, why the person would at times lose it and get violent and then quit again was never addressed.
Because there was no other instruction around, that kind took hold and was repeated by others.
Today we know better, I hope, not so many will go there, but are learning more sensible ways to ask a horse to move over than just attacking them.

I agree in principle that some training and riding is not as considerate of horses as it should be.
I also think that trainers are in general getting light years better than they used to be, as it should be and that we will always be learning more.

Especially in reining, where horse’s attitude counts for points, where a horse that naturally carries pinned looking ears won’t place, that training be extra careful and considerate of the horse so it stays with that happy to work look is becoming even more important.
The movements themselves are becoming so competitive, mere technical details separate the best and that the horse is performing happily has weighed in lately, maybe making trainers consider how they can refine their training. [HR][/HR]

[endlessclimb]

@Bluey

That question is the same no matter what discipline you are talking about.
Some trainers are better horsemen, don’t need to go there, others are rougher trainers and don’t think anything to push horses into a fight.

I have seen them both, even at the olympic level, some that you wonder what bit them when they rough up a horse for the slightest “disobedience”.
Most trainers hopefully don’t go there.
Reining is no different, sorry that you only have seen rough trainers and not in other disciplines you have been watching.

I learned from a retired military officer and later in an European riding instructor program and in both, caring for and working with the horse came first.
I too have been appalled since then when I realized many trainers, especially in the US, maybe because they don’t work out of riding centers but private barns without anyone watching them “behind the barn”, appalled how little some respect horses.

I agree, coming from a horsemanship where horse’s mouth is sacred, where any jerking on the bit, that “bumping” some use today, would have been a reason for a stern warning and if caught at it again, some people just don’t get it, dismissed summarily.
There are times where you may have to get a little strong with the reins, like jumping a bigger tight course.
You are taught to not put the horse in those situations, train them well to respond without fighting you, so that is rare.
If you go there, you also learn that you have to apologize to the horse and be sure to work so that doesn’t has to happen.
Then there is the rare quirky horse that “has it’s moments” also, not always the rider’s or the horse training’s fault.

Once, working with a reining trainer, overbending and that kind of training was demonstrated.
It didn’t make much sense to me, so I asked about it, mentioning that we used to consider a horse behind the bit like that a very serious fault that was hard to correct, much less go there on purpose, as it was letting horse practice an avoidance.
Trainer explained with reining horses, in self carriage, horses didn’t depend on their bit for other than the lightest guidance, leg would take care of any avoidance and behind the bit.
It was that fine line reining training was looking for, a horse so responsive to leg and super light and responsive to hand, without slipping to using all that flexing for avoidance.
I said, “behind the bit” riding is against my religion.
I can do that requested performance fine, without needing to go to overbending the horse and proceeded to demonstrating just that.
Trainer said, ok, training is about the results, however you get there, is fine.
Some time later, reining trainer was showing interest in learning more about dressage, which I found interesting.

Another example, when certain western trainer started decades ago, what he was doing was decidedly rough.
He wanted a horse to back off, slinging ropes at it, hitting it with sticks, whatever it took for the horse to scoot around and get moving was the main goal.
That the horse was learning to resist throwing head up and scrambling without understanding what it was asked, why the person would at times lose it and get violent and then quit again was never addressed.
Because there was no other instruction around, that kind took hold and was repeated by others.
Today we know better, I hope, not so many will go there, but are learning more sensible ways to ask a horse to move over than just attacking them.

I agree in principle that some training and riding is not as considerate of horses as it should be.
I also think that trainers are in general getting light years better than they used to be, as it should be and that we will always be learning more.

Especially in reining, where horse’s attitude counts for points, where a horse that naturally carries pinned looking ears won’t place, that training be extra careful and considerate of the horse so it stays with that happy to work look is becoming even more important.
The movements themselves are becoming so competitive, mere technical details separate the best and that the horse is performing happily has weighed in lately, maybe making trainers consider how they can refine their training. [HR][/HR]

I never said I didn’t see it in other disciplines. Just that I’ve never NOT seen it in reining, and wanted to understand what the pressure was that encourages trainers to “go there”. Futurity timelines came to mind immediately.

[YankeeDuchess]

@mvp

OK, so I didn’t agree with you. To say I can’t distinguish lameness from soundness (when these horses are ridden vs. lunged… a part of my post you failed to acknowledge) is not the same thing as say that you and I agree that they look lame. I’m agnostic with respect to a WP horse’s soundness. You, however, conflated “looks lame” with “is lame” when you read my post. That’s a mistaken inference.

If you start with the premise that the “lame looking lope” is worth anything, I think your premise might be why you don’t get an answer from anyone “high falutin’” in WP world. You insult them twice just in the question!

My statement: When I see a WP class, in the lope, the horse looks lame to me.

Your statement: In WP, the gaits are so distorted that it is difficult to distinguish between soundness and lameness (in a class).

Those two statements still look like they’re in agreement to me.

I made no statement as to whether he horses were or were not lame; that was someone else. Your statement that to detect lameness, one would have to take the rider off and put the horse on a lunge line merely reinforces the point.

Indeed, I thought I probably was insulting people who rode Western Pleasure by saying that to a dressage rider
watching the WP lope, the horse LOOKED lame to me. I received answers from no one, high falutin or otherwise, as to why the slow gait with no impulsion was either beautiful or functional. Instead, posters responded that a) in some cases the horses WERE lame, and b) that others had the same reaction.

[RoughOut]

I think sometimes a “jerk” on the mouth can look worse than it is. I have an old show horse who loves going in a cathedral. With that kind of bit I can’t hang on it otherwise it will really jab into the roof of his mouth. I have to “get in and get out” he’s on a slack rein so to make contact, engage the shanks, I have to pick up and release as soon as I can. Some bits you can’t half halt or “feel” their mouth like you do riding english or two hands. The half halt comes from your seat and legs only.

Now I have seen some people over doing it absolutely. And not just reining shows but aqha, h/j and morgan shows. Those people in the warm up ring with just absolutely no feel jerking on their horses mouths and kicking. Not okay.

Listening to Andrea Fappani’s podcast has been so eye opening to me. I’ll be honest he wasn’t my favorite trainer at first (not that I’ve ever met him or anything) but listening to his training philosophies is seriously awesome. Casey Deary is another high level trainer that I would send any horse to. He has great feel and empathy for horses. There are good trainers out there that make good sound broke horses. It’s just a shame that there are a lot of bad ones out there too.

[Bluey]

@endlessclimb

I never said I didn’t see it in other disciplines. Just that I’ve never NOT seen it in reining, and wanted to understand what the pressure was that encourages trainers to “go there”. Futurity timelines came to mind immediately.

I doubt that Futurities have anything to do with how some train, but how they have learned to train?

That would be like assuming a rough jumper rider is rough because he is preparing for a Grand Prix?

I think those trainers that “go there” just don’t have the skills or personality to train like the real horsemen, that make training look so quiet and easy you miss what is going on there.
A bit maybe like a teacher that yells at kids regularly as a bad habit or one that just explains and demands and praises without needing to try to enforce attention, but engages the students.

[Fin01]

Pretty sure @endlessclimb’s comments about jerking and poking with spurs are due to futurities because futurities usually mean extremely young horses. Compete 2 yrs old horses and they’re going to need to be show ring ready FAST. So “good training” where you take the time to figure a horse out, how it learns accommodate for its weaknesses and adjust training accordingly isn’t employed because it takes too long. So you’re not going to compete in the 2 or even 3 yr old classes of the futurities.

[Bluey]

@Fin01

Pretty sure @endlessclimb’s comments about jerking and poking with spurs are due to futurities because futurities usually mean extremely young horses. Compete 2 yrs old horses and they’re going to need to be show ring ready FAST. So “good training” where you take the time to figure a horse out, how it learns accommodate for its weaknesses and adjust training accordingly isn’t employed because it takes too long. So you’re not going to compete in the 2 or even 3 yr old classes of the futurities.

Not sure some know what futurities are?

Reining futurities are for three year olds, the big one first of December their three year old year.
The earlier futurities in the summer are preparation for that big one and many are still riding two handed.
Many horses are started as futurity prospects, but not many will end showing in futurities, for many reasons, one also lack of maturity.
Won’t do any good to try to compete with a horse not suitable for any one competition, also true for futurities.
Those prepared and ready for them, why not?
They are competing with others same age and not expected any more of them that what they are at that level.
Futurities show talent and future ability prospect to be great later, once more seasoned, experienced and that talent further refined.
They are not competing against older, experienced horses.

[Fin01]

@Bluey

Not sure some know what futurities are?

Reining futurities are for three year olds, the big one first of December their three year old year.
The earlier futurities in the summer are preparation for that big one and many are still riding two handed.
Many horses are started as futurity prospects, but not many will end showing in futurities, for many reasons, one also lack of maturity.
Won’t do any good to try to compete with a horse not suitable for any one competition, also true for futurities.
Those prepared and ready for them, why not?
They are competing with others same age and not expected any more of them that what they are at that level.
Futurities show talent and future ability prospect to be great later, once more seasoned, experienced and that talent further refined.
They are not competing against older, experienced horses.

Thank you for clarifying the ages on Futurities. Yes, I’m showing my ignorance on the topic.

However my point still stands… everybody’s trying to get the best performance out of that 3 y.o. as quickly as possible. Even if someone backs a horse at 2, my personal opinion only, that’s still super young to be pushing it through movements its having trouble with.

I wasn’t implying 2 or 3 y.o horses are competing against older animals. I was speaking to prepping/ training for the show ring.

But yes, bad training can be found at any age and any discipline. I haven’t spent enough time ringside at any western training barns so have any further input on western riding, specifically.

[Mukluk]

I think it is so sad and tragic that so many animals are abused in the name of being “more competitive” not to mention the many animals that are just plain being abused. Not just horses but all kinds of animals. My friend adopted a mustang that was scared of garden hoses. Turns out hitting horse with a hose is common practice where this horse came from. So sad.

[endlessclimb]

@Bluey

Not sure some know what futurities are?

Reining futurities are for three year olds, the big one first of December their three year old year.
The earlier futurities in the summer are preparation for that big one and many are still riding two handed.
Many horses are started as futurity prospects, but not many will end showing in futurities, for many reasons, one also lack of maturity.
Won’t do any good to try to compete with a horse not suitable for any one competition, also true for futurities.
Those prepared and ready for them, why not?
They are competing with others same age and not expected any more of them that what they are at that level.
Futurities show talent and future ability prospect to be great later, once more seasoned, experienced and that talent further refined.
They are not competing against older, experienced horses.

You back a horse at 2, let’s say. There is no way to get that many movements installed with that amount of “gusto” (for lack of a better word) without excessive drilling and over riding, IMO.

I think futurities should be done away with, and I bet you’d find better trainers coming out of the woodwork.

[TMares]

@RoughOut

I think sometimes a “jerk” on the mouth can look worse than it is. I have an old show horse who loves going in a cathedral. With that kind of bit I can’t hang on it otherwise it will really jab into the roof of his mouth. I have to “get in and get out” he’s on a slack rein so to make contact, engage the shanks, I have to pick up and release as soon as I can. Some bits you can’t half halt or “feel” their mouth like you do riding english or two hands. The half halt comes from your seat and legs only.

Now I have seen some people over doing it absolutely. And not just reining shows but aqha, h/j and morgan shows. Those people in the warm up ring with just absolutely no feel jerking on their horses mouths and kicking. Not okay.

Listening to Andrea Fappani’s podcast has been so eye opening to me. I’ll be honest he wasn’t my favorite trainer at first (not that I’ve ever met him or anything) but listening to his training philosophies is seriously awesome. Casey Deary is another high level trainer that I would send any horse to. He has great feel and empathy for horses. There are good trainers out there that make good sound broke horses. It’s just a shame that there are a lot of bad ones out there too.

I’ve learned so much from his podcasts. I had a poor opinion of him until I started listening. Very educational and well produced content.

[TheHunterKid90]

@endlessclimb

You back a horse at 2, let’s say. There is no way to get that many movements installed with that amount of “gusto” (for lack of a better word) without excessive drilling and over riding, IMO.

I think futurities should be done away with, and I bet you’d find better trainers coming out of the woodwork.

My two year olds are walk, trot and loping for about 20 min. Learning to move hips and shoulders in and out and trail riding. That’s it! And they WILL SHOW as 3 year olds and be plenty ready.

2 years ago I had a 2 year old that didn’t get started til October, 13 months later (November of her 3 year old year) she won an open futurity and a Lawson Trophy which is the highest trophy awarded in reining. She was never pushed, never injected and never lame. I just tried to teach her every day and she said give me more.

As far as ethical and kind top trainers…Casey deary is truly great to his horses. They get turn out al the time, he starts them as 2 year olds but they literally ride in a bosal and trail ride and learn the basics for the first 5 months. He doesn’t over bridle his horses, he lets their personalities shine through and his success is proof it works.

Jason Vanlandingham is another. He holds his horses to a very high standard but he is very fair to
his horses. Quiet handed and doesn’t just bit his horses up and intimidate them. His son is a lower level trainer and they work together so if a horse is not talented enough for Jason, his son may show the horse. Makes the owner happy that the horse is successful even though it’s a lower level and it takes pressure off the horse to play at a level he’s not physically or mentally capable of.