I’d take a nice QH any day. In my opinion, the appendix QH was the best of all the ideas, thoroughbred sportiness and QH mind.
When I’m old, I want a super broke reining horse to live out my days with.
My last Grand Prix dressage horse was a paint/wb cross. You could fell a tree 15 feet from him and he wouldn’t flick an ear. Safe safe safe and loved to work.
We have one of these at my barn, cool little dude! Maybe 9 months under saddle now and jumps around the .90m at shows, trail rides, packs kids around their first courses.
The herd is sort of managed - a few local folks drop off alfalfa in the winter and fill water troughs in summer - so they’re pretty habituated to humans early on.
Yep, I had been doing either a running braid or a basket weave. Once it was pulled and buttoned, she passed as a thoroughbred X just fine…
It used to be common for the announcer to say who you were and what you were riding as you entered the ring … i.e. “And in Ring 1, AltersAreUs is riding the arabian mare, Miss Thang in her X level freestyle”.
That said, putting “breed” braiding on a horse is pretty telling whether the judge has the program or not.
There are Thoroughbreds that do quite well at dressage.
& that could explain why the WB studbooks - brought from Germany by my Dressage trainer at the time - from 30yrs ago showed a lot of XX indicating TB crosses 
And… why snap your knees when you can just jump higher? (woo boy would I NOT like to have ridden this one!!)
Well, the European WB in general is a TB crossed with a heavier breed of carriage or cavalry horse, and then run through a rigorous evaluate and cull process over generations. The TB X with Irish draft or Percheron or Cleveland Bay was the Anglophone solution to creating a fox hunter or jumper with more substance than a straight TB. But Britain and North America didn’t have the regulated state studbooks to breed these TBx selectively over years, they’ve always been private breeding programs or more one-off attempts, and no registry for the horses. The European coup was to create these TBx in a regulated program that bred for performance.
lol, no. the European WB is not generally a TB cross.
Depending on country, region and use.
Of course, over the last 2-3 decades there has been more TB blood been used to lightn up the animals, because up until the late 50s WB were ideed used in the farms still.
Selle Francaise has subsections which vary greatly, the famous French Anglo-Arabs among them. The North German breeds only recently became lighter horses, the Southern registries have been traditionally lighter. Eastern countries used to breed for currency. A mixed bag, loaded on a truck, if they were lucky with stops at various riding barns.
The US just does not have the infra structure. So they went out and shot every Mustang Stallion and released TB stallions into the herds, hoping they’d survive long enough to breed remounts. Europe sunk a lot of money into the process, developed incentives for civilians and owned large stud farms. Trakehnen had many mare herds, divided by color!
It is not just the bTB use that was regulated. Mare inspections, foal inspections, and stallion keuring.
Behind quite a number of them there can be surprisingly much Thoroughbred blood.
Blood percentages
Ancestors of https://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/1643392/identity-vitseroel :
Argentan I 34,96%
Dorle 24,41%
Matador 39,06%
Winzerin 34,38%
Lugano van la Roche 37,50%
Ocoucha 27,34%
Papilon Rouche 47,50%
Weriska 41,80%
(https://sporthorse-data.com/pedigree/argentan-i?mode=d has linebreeding to https://sporthorse-data.com/pedigree/futurist-i?mode=d)
Ancestors of https://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/204/argentan-i
Termit 71,88%
Abendluft 73,67%
Landeck 50,59%
Schlinka 61,91%
Frusta II 50,20%
Friesenamsel 40,04%
Lateran 78,71%
Fuchslicht 42,97%
Ancestors of https://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/205/dorle
Dolman 49,80%
Forstweihe 34,57%
Der Loewe 100%
Allgabi 34,96%
Firnis 46,48%
Abendlerche 32,62%
Freiburg 49,61%
Dorfstrasse 35,35
Ancestors of https://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/8966/dolman
Defregger I 71,88%
Jabe 57,81%
Khedive 81,64%
Concette 44,53%
Alnok 66,99%
Germanna 54,10%
Ordensritter 42,38%
Stute von Alnok 69,92%
Ancestors of https://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/29041/ordensritter
Fluegel 81,25%
Elba 79,30%
Harnisch I 75%
Hammer mare most of pedigree is missing
Unknown horse
Unknown horse
Duduck 84,18%
Stute von 77,15% in sire, dam unknown
Nimmerdor had 38% TB in his most recent 12 generations. But he had loads of linebreeding to:
https://sporthorse-data.com/pedigree/achill-0 51% TB
https://sporthorse-data.com/pedigree/burlington-turk-81 66% TB
https://sporthorse-data.com/pedigree/ethelbert 61% TB
https://sporthorse-data.com/pedigree/agamemnon 54% TB
https://sporthorse-data.com/pedigree/emigrant 53% TB
https://sporthorse-data.com/pedigree/nord 60% TB
http://www.sportpferdezucht-haygis.de/farnese.html
Linebreeding 12 Generations:
110x Hannibal (Holst)
101x Achill (Holst)
89x Burlington Turk 81 (Cleveland Bay)
87x Ethelbert (Holst)
66x Brillant (Yorkshire Coach Horse)
66x Young Burlington (Holst)
54x Malcolm (Hann)
49x Midas (Holst)
49x Champion (Cleveland Bay)
49x Protokol (Holst)
48x Brillant (Holst)
46x Adjudant (Holst)
41x Owstwick (Cleveland Bay)
34x Young Ethelbert (Holst)
28x Julius 1344 (Hann)
25x Cicero (Holst)
20x Herkules (Holst)
20x Falb (Holst)
18x Achill 1265 (Holst)
15x Ali (Holst)
13x Amurath 1881 ox (Vollblutaraber)
11x Amurath II ox (Shagya)
7x Elegant (Holst)
6x Kürassier (Holst)
5x Meister (Holst)
5x Tobias (Holst)
4x Champion (Cleveland Bay)
3x Füsilier (Holst)
3x Schiller (Holst)
2x Loretto (Holst)
2x Nordhäuser (Holst)
2x Diktator (Holst)
2x Favorit (Holst)
https://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/extended-pedigree/370999/9
https://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/extended-pedigree/13850/9
http://home.claranet.nl/users/lijssel/nederlnd/The%20Origins%20of%20the%20Warmblood%20Horse.htm
http://www.sportpferdezucht-haygis.de/tobias.html
Linebred 42 times to a Thoroughbred.
https://sporthorse-data.com/pedigree/brillant-4
A typical example of a Holsteiner, they all have that same type of linebreeding: http://www.sportpferdezucht-haygis.de/fasolt.html Linebreeding to Hannibal 138 times. https://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/extended-pedigree/14726/9
Tobias gave a lot of jump, 42 lines of Thoroughbred Harpham Turk xx.
http://www.sportpferdezucht-haygis.de/tobias.html
https://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/extended-pedigree/6571/9
http://www.sportpferdezucht-haygis.de/warmbluthengste.html
https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2015/05/line-breeding-a-crucial-tool-for-the-breeder/
https://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/Potent-Ramiro.html
http://home.vianetworks.nl/users/lijssel/nederlnd/The%20Origins%20of%20the%20Warmblood%20Horse_files/body_origin_warmblood.html
Just look how absolutely gorgeous and only USD 1,750.
https://aftertheraces.org/adoptablehorses/tua-rrp-eligible/
Hopefully she stops cribbing.
@Scribbler
the breed is not on anything the judge sees.
the judge has a stack of tests in front of them, arranged to align with the order of tests to be ridden. The scribe has the actual test sheets that will be filled out with scores and comments. If there are five of the exact same test in order of go, the judge has ONE copy, the scribe has 5, and the identifying information is actually on the back. When the rider comes around the ring before entering, they typically call out “First Last on Horse Name, test name” - the scribe confirms they have the right test sheet, the judge looks at their copy to make sure they are still on the right one…and when they are ready, they ring the bell.
The scribe often jots down ‘bay w/ 2 hind socks’ or the like near the top corner so they and the judge can recall a given test should there be some question later.
I stopped reading around post 150 or so because I have seen variations on this same thread with the same gripes at least a dozen times and each time the same complaints/accusations come up.
The rich people are buying their way by expensive horses,
The poor amateur owner can’t win against that competition,
It’s a rich mans game.
It’s unfair.
Is it just ‘possible’ that the rich competition is winning because they are simply better? They do not have to work at jobs to support their horse they can practice more they can swap out a tired horse for a fresh one until they get a movement perfect and yes they can afford the best trainers.
So they can afford imported high dollar warmbloods big deal.
It is not unheard of that cheap horses do win against the big guys Hugh Wiley& Nautical, Harry&Snowman, Richard Spooner&Kirk* there are many more but those were the first three that come to mind.
Owners of moderate means need to focus on the horses talent and less so on their pedigree when they buy.
Last I checked outside of breed shows judges don’t care what parentage a horse is performance is what matters.
The sentiments of the OP is comparable to a passionate car collector who found a rare X model car on craigslist that he could afford, he spends tens of thousands thousands on getting it restored to what he thought was perfect condition, takes it to local shows and does well. enters it into the nearest Concours d’Elegance and comes in last Because his competition is now the Jay Lenos and those with that amount of money to spend. Did they buy their way in? To an extent but it does not mean that the little person can’t win against the big names.
The competition is supposed to get tougher at higher levels. That is no excuse for sour grapes or tearing down the winner. Once you are out of school not everyone gets a trophy.
What the show world could use is more lower level shows where the amateur owners have a better chance of being in the ribbons.
*If I am wrong about Kirk being a bargain OTTB I am sure everyone will tell me.
Thanks all for the early morning laughs.
Laundering money through horses in the past has been a thing. Pretty much as McGurk described. It’s harder now for the reasons given. Way back in the 60s or 70s a good friend of my mothers was killed for not keeping his mouth shut about some sketchy deals. Killed his dog, then him. Moral or the story is keep your mouth shut if the Mafia is involved. This again was like 60 years ago. The horse business today is not nearly as shady as it was back in the day.
My father worked horses in Chicago in the 40s & 50s. The OP has no idea what shady is. You want papers on this horse? Sure, I have the papers (newspapers). That was ACTUALLY done.
no mafia involved (though I did know a horse had a bullet hole in his head as a warning) but a dealer my friend used offered me a choice of papers for my bay gelding - AQHA, half Arab, or breeding stock paint. If he had two plain bay geldings the lame or crazy one went for meat and the sound sane one got the papers.
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