[QUOTE=StormyDay;8863363]
I have no idea what is going on. Are you supporting that video of overuse of a crossunder bridle? Because that is what it seems like from where I sit.[/QUOTE]
Then you need to change your seat. ( I added a wink to one of my posts.) Here’s some history: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?317844-Our-friend-dragonhearte8-writes-into-USDF-Connections&highlight=dragonharte+bitless+bridle
[QUOTE=alicen;8863369]
Then you need to change your seat. ( I added a wink to one of my posts.)[/QUOTE]
Ok, the post meaning is clearer now. Sarcasm doesn’t translate well over text.
[QUOTE=alicen;8863361]
You’re obviously new to the forum. Rev. Buck, as videoed, claims to be the original inventor of the cross under bitless bridle. He was also the cause of many a classic train wrecks. Having the poll be the highest point was his first criteria for correct dressage.[/QUOTE]
First and only criteria :lol: Good riding sure didn’t factor in to the equation! OMG, you are dredging up old drama - someone should really link one of those threads here… And be prepared to break out the popcorn and box of wine!
By sidepull do you mean ones with a plain noseband (no cross-under) and a ring on each side to attach the reins? That’s what I usually think of as a sidepull. When I was a teen, my riding instructor used her personal horse for lessons, but only in this type of sidepull until the rider demonstrated quiet hands and the ability to move the horse from seat and legs. The horse went in a Pelham (this was not a dressage instructor) with two reins, for those who rode well enough to use it.
She was a lovely horse with a lovely personality, a stout Morgan/QH cross.
G-d help me, I was one of the ones allowed to ride her in a bit. I would not be allowed to do so now… But a 25 year break from riding and a decidely uncooperative body will do that.
[QUOTE=quietann;8864410]
By sidepull do you mean ones with a plain noseband (no cross-under) and a ring on each side to attach the reins? That’s what I usually think of as a sidepull. When I was a teen, my riding instructor used her personal horse for lessons, but only in this type of sidepull until the rider demonstrated quiet hands and the ability to move the horse from seat and legs. The horse went in a Pelham (this was not a dressage instructor) with two reins, for those who rode well enough to use it.
She was a lovely horse with a lovely personality, a stout Morgan/QH cross.
G-d help me, I was one of the ones allowed to ride her in a bit. I would not be allowed to do so now… But a 25 year break from riding and a decidely uncooperative body will do that.[/QUOTE]
Yep, that’s what I meant. Many European trainers start young horses in those from what I have read/heard, and my trainer does as well. They are basically a well fitted halter as far as how they work - gentle, and do not act on the lower jaw so do not encourage the horse to gape/react incorrectly in the mouth as it is learning to carry weight for the first time. All my trainer’s horses he starts understand steering from a bit before they are ridden, but he uses the noseband/cavesson rein at first under saddle.
That not acting on the lower jaw is where I can see why people may have legitimate reasons for not using bitless (“It’s tradition!!!1!!11!” isn’t a reason to me), but if you still require soft chewing and correct poll flexion I think it’s ok… but I’m not sure that you can get that as well without a bit.
[QUOTE=netg;8862534]
If so, I hope it is only the cavesson type/side pulls, rather than any of the variety of bitless with leverage I see some horrible riding examples of on facebook and “look, my horse is better with this” when it’s clearly force causing the horse to be “better.” I certainly can understand hackamores and the like in some situations, and perhaps you allow a leverage bitless where you would allow a leverage big - I don’t know enough about how they work to compare there, but for lower levels only simple straightforward no leverage would be appropriate to me.
My gelding has many issues dating back to his time on the track and not being the right temperament for it (hint: if they geld a horse in the middle of his racing career in hopes it makes him more controllable, it may be the wrong career for him!) This includes previously having a fear of bits and contact. We used a cavesson rein on him in addition to a (loose) bit rein for quite some time, teaching him to move forward into contact and to open the throatlatch - because he needed to learn how to use his body properly without fear for his mouth. And he wasn’t afraid of the cavesson. We gradually increased use of the bit so he would learn that also would not hurt him.
Where I see a potential issue with a sidepull is the manner in which a horse flexes when you are only working on the top jaw and not on the bottom is not always the same. Because my gelding actually flexes more off a thought with the seat it is not an issue, but I’m not sure that subtlety could be taught as well without a bit ever. There is also the fact if you have a bit you work on the lower jaw and pulling can often result in gaping (assuming noseband isn’t so tight the horse can’t) whereas you can hide that pulling more with a hackamore which doesn’t work on the lower jaw. A well ridden horse will still have the gentle chewing and saliva production even without a bit in its mouth, as anyone who has worked a horse in hand in a cavesson knows.[/QUOTE]
Very true. I was forced into bitless (a glorified halter - “jumping hackamore” if you google it) when my horse broke his jaw, and over the 4 months between the fracture and being allowed back into a bit, we were working on 2nd easily. But he had been learning 3rd/4th before the fracture, so we had the foundation to ride mostly off of my seat. He’s very light in the bridle anyway and has always ridden better off of the seat, so it wasn’t a huge transition.
I think some people are confusing sidepulls with crossunders. Sidepulls do release, immediately upon cessation of rein pressure. I used a crossunder a handful of times, and I agree that they are overly harsh and don’t release.
I like sidepulls for the very beginning under saddle work. If a youngster gets unbalanced and trips, I don’t need to worry at all about the horse learning to fear the bit. Sometimes (and this is very dependent on the individual horse), I’ll use them with horses that get strong when hacking out. Completely counter-intuitive, I know. However certain horses, when they don’t have a bit to grab and lean on when riding out, get a lot more tractable.
And yeah, there are valid reasons why a horse may be completely unable to use a bit. I’ve come across several horses who have had such catastrophic injuries to their mouths that their owners were advised by vets to permanently forgo using bits.
The use of a “side pull” goes as far back or before the epic opus of William Cavendish, First Duke of Newcastle was written…nothing new here in the use of “bitless.”
“A General System of Horsemanship” was published in 1658.
https://www.amazon.com/General-System-Horsemanship-Allens-Classic/dp/0851317596
All the “classical” books, (eg., books of manege riding from the period before the cavalry school such Newcastle, Pluvinel, Reis d’Eisenberg, deWinter…) show the breaking of the young horse with the side pull cavesson before introduction of the bit.
Picture of the equipment
http://www.hoofprintstudio.com/store/images/Plate5.jpg
And it use
http://www.panteek.com/Eisenberg/pages/dgh16-131.htm
[QUOTE=netg;8864499]
That not acting on the lower jaw is where I can see why people may have legitimate reasons for not using bitless (“It’s tradition!!!1!!11!” isn’t a reason to me), but if you still require soft chewing and correct poll flexion I think it’s ok… but I’m not sure that you can get that as well without a bit.[/QUOTE]
I’ve only started a handful but always do it in a sidepull. Beyond that I occasionally warm up horses in a neck ring and sometimes do a whole “fun” ride using a neck ring.
I’ve never seen a “bitless” ride that I’ve admired that was produced entirely bitless- they were all originally schooled in a bit. IMO, the reactions we obtain of the lower jaw and tongue do eventually transfer over to bitless. I don’t think it’s possible to initially obtain those reactions without a bit. I could be wrong. I wish someone like Hilary Clayton would do a study on those reactions- particularly the connection between the bit/tongue/hyoid/shoulder girdle.
Pluvial’s pictures of the equipment, including two bitless set-ups looks rather horrifying in our day and age.
The spurs are large and spikes sharp.
The two metal bitless set ups are hinged and applying the reins would add a pinching effect, and the second one is a serrate, or serated edge that works on the nose. In Spain and Portugal horses trained in these almost always have white hairs on their noses from the effect of the metal ‘cheese grater’ edge.
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8865653]
Pluvial’s pictures of the equipment, including two bitless set-ups looks rather horrifying in our day and age.
The spurs are large and spikes sharp.
The two metal bitless set ups are hinged and applying the reins would add a pinching effect, and the second one is a serrate, or serated edge that works on the nose. In Spain and Portugal horses trained in these almost always have white hairs on their noses from the effect of the metal ‘cheese grater’ edge.[/QUOTE]
Sigh…the comments of the clueless.
Here is a modern serreta that is typically used in the iberian tradition to start a young horse before the bit is introduced. Reins are attached to the side rings.
http://webshop.viva-iberica.com/single-ring-serreton-by-marjoman-with-nylon-headpiece---huge-choice-of-colours-1387-p.asp
No pinching, no serrated edge, no “cheese grater edge”. The image I linked earlier is from a 1790 book that I used to illustrate that the use of a “side pull” was used in the training of the horse that dates back centuries.
I personally have never seen any horse with white hair on their nose due to the use of these pieces of tack.
How very polite of you, P.
[QUOTE=pluvinel;8865660]
Sigh…the comments of the clueless.
Here is a modern serreta that is typically used in the iberian tradition to start a young horse before the bit is introduced. Reins are attached to the side rings.
http://webshop.viva-iberica.com/single-ring-serreton-by-marjoman-with-nylon-headpiece---huge-choice-of-colours-1387-p.asp
No pinching, no serrated edge, no “cheese grater edge”. The image I linked earlier is from a 1790 book that I used to illustrate that the use of a “side pull” was used in the training of the horse that dates back centuries.
I personally have never seen any horse with white hair on their nose due to the use of these pieces of tack.[/QUOTE]
[B]clueless? My how charming!
[/B]do you know how many here ride, compete (and at FEI no less?) we likely have a lot of experience behind what we post, you know (???)
do you actually ride? Are you a trainer?
The red iberian bridle looks like a standard longing caveson, big deal.
Add me to the horrified list, just because it’s old doesn’t mean its GOOD!
Haven’t read the entire thread. There are alternative competitions that allow bitless–Working Equitation is one and The Baroque Equestrian Games is another.
OP- I have a horse with an uber sensitive mouth. When he did eventing, at the Intermediate level, he was jumped in a hackamore… We use a Nathe and he actually loves it. Have you tried that bit? Just an idea…
[QUOTE=SendenHorse;8866950]
[B]clueless? My how charming!
[/B]do you know how many here ride, compete (and at FEI no less?) we likely have a lot of experience behind what we post, you know (???)
do you actually ride? Are you a trainer?
The red iberian bridle looks like a standard longing caveson, big deal.
Add me to the horrified list, just because it’s old doesn’t mean its GOOD![/QUOTE]
Honestly? We are (mostly) adults here…
[QUOTE=skydy;8867221]
Honestly? We are (mostly) adults here…[/QUOTE]
I thought the same thing, calling us clueless is no way to act on here! 
I was just wondering if they were/are some sort of trainer, very odd…whatever, lets get back to the OP
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8865653]
Pluvial’s pictures of the equipment, including two bitless set-ups looks rather horrifying in our day and age.
The spurs are large and spikes sharp.
The two metal bitless set ups are hinged and applying the reins would add a pinching effect, and the second one is a serrate, or serated edge that works on the nose. In Spain and Portugal horses trained in these almost always have white hairs on their noses from the effect of the metal ‘cheese grater’ edge.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=pluvinel;8865660]Sigh…the comments of the clueless.
Here is a modern serreta that is typically used in the iberian tradition to start a young horse before the bit is introduced. Reins are attached to the side rings.
http://webshop.viva-iberica.com/single-ring-serreton-by-marjoman-with-nylon-headpiece---huge-choice-of-colours-1387-p.asp
No pinching, no serrated edge, no “cheese grater edge”. The image I linked earlier is from a 1790 book that I used to illustrate that the use of a “side pull” was used in the training of the horse that dates back centuries.
I personally have never seen any horse with white hair on their nose due to the use of these pieces of tack.[/QUOTE]
Well, just calling it as I see it when someone makes remarks about seeing the use of equipment illustrated in a book that was written 226 years ago.
The objective of the illustration was to show the concept of a “side pull” and “bitless” dates back centuries.
There is always potential abuse of equipment, and perhaps you have seen horses with nose rubs, but I have also seen “white hairs” on a halter from a rub that happened in a couple of hours.
[QUOTE=pluvinel;8865211]
The use of a “side pull” goes as far back or before the epic opus of William Cavendish, First Duke of Newcastle was written…nothing new here in the use of “bitless.”
“A General System of Horsemanship” was published in 1658.
https://www.amazon.com/General-System-Horsemanship-Allens-Classic/dp/0851317596
All the “classical” books, (eg., books of manege riding from the period before the cavalry school such Newcastle, Pluvinel, Reis d’Eisenberg, deWinter…) show the breaking of the young horse with the side pull cavesson before introduction of the bit.
Picture of the equipment
http://www.hoofprintstudio.com/store/images/Plate5.jpg
And it use
http://www.panteek.com/Eisenberg/pages/dgh16-131.htm[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;8865653]Pluvial’s pictures of the equipment, including two bitless set-ups looks rather horrifying in our day and age.
The spurs are large and spikes sharp.
The two metal bitless set ups are hinged and applying the reins would add a pinching effect, and the second one is a serrate, or serated edge that works on the nose. In Spain and Portugal horses trained in these almost always have white hairs on their noses from the effect of the metal ‘cheese grater’ edge.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=pluvinel;8865660]Sigh…the comments of the clueless.
Here is a modern serreta that is typically used in the iberian tradition to start a young horse before the bit is introduced. Reins are attached to the side rings.
http://webshop.viva-iberica.com/single-ring-serreton-by-marjoman-with-nylon-headpiece---huge-choice-of-colours-1387-p.asp
No pinching, no serrated edge, no “cheese grater edge”. The image I linked earlier is from a 1790 book that I used to illustrate that the use of a “side pull” was used in the training of the horse that dates back centuries.
I personally have never seen any horse with white hair on their nose due to the use of these pieces of tack.[/QUOTE]
Well, just calling it as I see it when someone makes remarks about seeing the use of equipment that was illustrated in a book written 226 years ago.
The objective of the illustration was to show the concept of using a “side pull” and “going bitless” dates back centuries.
There is always potential abuse of equipment, and perhaps you have seen horses with nose rubs, but I have also seen “white hairs” on a halter from a rub that happened in a couple of hours.
Here is a modern side pull -it isn’t all that different from a hackamore nose - but instead of reins at the bottom, there is a rein at each side - and when you turn the horse - you pull on the side (hence side-pull). The cowboys use them - I’ve started young horses in them, but found that starting them in a regular bit is more effective, to be honest. I think they are a great tool for someone who is worried about using too much hands on a young horse, and they aren’t harsh (unlike the bottom cross bitless that the Reverend is pushing).
I have nothing against using a sidepull - or a hackamore. I just don’t think they belong in dressage competition. The circle of aids include the bit.
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