Will it ever stop?

[teddygirl]

One of my concerns, other than just hating to see this horse still being pushed into doing what he obviously doesn’t want to for years, is that if he’s pushed to a level where he has another horrible fall and injury it will make the whole sport look terrible. This horse has been overfaced for years and his team seems to want to prove some unknown point. If he’s badly injured again then we’ll probably get a tornado of animal rights people claiming that this is abuse. And they could very well be right.

He. Doesn’t. Want. To. Do. It.

I don’t see what else matters. He’s 15. Give it a rest.

[Jellybean1]

Wow…

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=JER;7675321]
Given his (1) crash history, (2) injury history, and (3) that – at least from his public performances – this is not a horse who copes well under pressure, there is little evidence to support the notion that this horse is a ‘packer’ at any level in any discipline that requires jumping.[/QUOTE]

Seriously? Many wonderful novice and training level horses cannot do well at the upper levels! If he is quiet and rideable, which I have seen him to be, I would bet he would be amazing at the lower levels.

[DoubleTwistedWire]

I saw him going last year at Prelim with the YR and thought he looked good, and was hopeful he’d keep going at that level, maybe some 1* things with her, and finish out his career on that. Apparently not :no:

If they feel like they must prove something by keeping him out and competing at something, why not do some straight dressage with him? He can get good scores there, and the upper level work he’s done isn’t so far off from what he’d need to do for PSG. Then they could say he’d made it to FEI in two disciplines, if that’s what is is that’s keeping them going with him. Other than being able to say that sort of thing, I don’t see any other point in keeping the horse going at this point. He’s already proved what he can, and doesn’t want, to do.

[JER]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;7675866]
Seriously? Many wonderful novice and training level horses cannot do well at the upper levels! If he is quiet and rideable, which I have seen him to be, I would bet he would be amazing at the lower levels.[/QUOTE]

Mandiba has shown himself to be a horse who shuts down or unravels mentally – with subsequent physical consequences – when tired or stressed. The fall at Badminton was the end result of a round that started out okay but deteriorated as the questions accumulated. The same thing happened at Burghley (this was the previous year, IIRC), resulting in an RF, preceded by some sticky moments including one that looked like an inevitable HF. The Olympic run was disconcerting, with some stops. The WEG SJ incident was less dangerous but not what you’d expect from a reliable 3* or 4* horse. And then things haven’t been going so well with his new rider, which might be why ML has taken over.

Although the fence heights are lower at Novice and Training, jumping is still jumping and XC is still somewhat unpredictable. Training is 1m in height, which is enough height for a serious accident over a solid fence. Or an up or down bank.

Add to that a horse’s previous experience and, perhaps, recurring pain or discomfort from a previous experience that resulted in serious injury. Can you be sure the lingering effects of that episode won’t come back to haunt?

A packer is a horse that looks after its rider and also after itself. A packer will do what it can to save itself when in a tight spot or tough situation. It’s a mindset as well as a physical capability, and it’s not related to jump height. A true packer knows when it’s safest to stop.

Mandiba – who is a beautiful, talented, athletic horse – is not a packer.

[2LaZ2race]

If I’m looking at his record correctly (I’m pretty tired!) he hasn’t finished half of his last 10 starts… that’s upsetting.

I don’t think it matters that when he’s “on” he can win an entire division… when he’s “off” he’s dangerous.

[tbchick84]

Dumb question, but is the record of the horse taken into consideration when the horse is entered for a the new event? Not really a tactful way to ask this, but do they accept any entry as long as the fee is paid? Is an entry ever turned down for things like previous record?

[EventingJ]

Seriously? The horse doesn’t try with some of the top riders giving the horse as close to a flawless ride as possible, resulting in rather terrible crashes, and your first thought is “lets see what happens when he throw an amateur on him”?

[QUOTE=Winding Down;7675866]
Seriously? Many wonderful novice and training level horses cannot do well at the upper levels! If he is quiet and rideable, which I have seen him to be, I would bet he would be amazing at the lower levels.[/QUOTE]

[Pipkin]

[QUOTE=StormWarriorC;7674073]
I was never a fan of the big guy, he just didn’t seem to enjoy it. I think they should just let him retire or let him do jumpers or dressage. Or move down and do training level as a schoolmaster.
I have no idea why they’re trying to get him back to the top level.
shrug[/QUOTE]

Money?

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=EventingJ;7676198]
Seriously? The horse doesn’t try with some of the top riders giving the horse as close to a flawless ride as possible, resulting in rather terrible crashes, and your first thought is “lets see what happens when he throw an amateur on him”?[/QUOTE]

I think this is a bit uncalled for? Certainly the " " above is not something I said!

I have had a lot of experience with horses that have done upper levels, some with very poor results, and then moved down and been terrific. Just because a horse doesn’t do well at Burghley or Badminton does NOT mean that he isn’t fully capable of cantering around a novice or training course. I would hate for those who read this BB to forego acquiring a wonderful partner just because the horse did not make it at the upper levels. Some of the very best finds for amateurs are precisely those horses.

The pressures and questions are very different at the UL than they are at training and below. VERY different. :yes:

Certainly not going to debate this further though… :lol:

[JER]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;7676209]
Just because a horse doesn’t do well at Burghley or Badminton does NOT mean that he isn’t fully capable of cantering around a novice or training course. I would hate for those who read this BB to forego acquiring a wonderful partner just because the horse did not make it at the upper levels. [/QUOTE]

You’re missing the point: it’s not that Mandiba didn’t make it at the ULs, it’s the way in which he had issues.

If a horse comes undone mentally on XC or SJ, to the extent that he has repeated crashes, even with one of the best, most experienced riders on his back, the horse is not a packer or an ammy-suitable mount over fences.

The horse would be okay physically at the lower levels, fully capable of getting around. But what happens when he’s tired, or when he has to cope with his ammy/young/less-experienced rider’s mistakes? You already know that he unravels – it’s not a matter of ‘if’, it’s a matter of ‘when’. Why take that risk? Why ‘pass him on’ to someone to take that risk?

It’s not fair to the horse to demand that he be something he’s not. Mandiba has had enough of that in his life.

[Winding_Down]

I am not missing the point, but I think you are. I have watched this horse do a super job teaching a young rider and jump beautifully. He gets a bad spot … and that is not forgiven at the upper levels. It is at the lower levels, especially with an athletic horse such as Mandiba. The fact that the lower levels are more forgiving (I don’t think there is a retort for this) is precisely why it is so very rare to see an MR at training and below.

uh oh. I already said I am done debating… however, I do appreciate yet another point of view on my posts across topics…

[Jealoushe]

I feel really, really sorry for this horse.

[teddygirl]

[QUOTE=Pipkin;7676206]
Money?[/QUOTE]

I really don’t think it’s about the money. Some years ago there was a thread on Mandiba here on COTH and some of his people came on here and explained how he’s so well bred and really can do it. Many posters here talked about how unhappy the horse looked and that it could be dangerous. This was well before his bad fall. Seems to me they’re trying to prove a point.

Anyway, I can’t imagine anyone foolish enough to lease him at the point. Which doesn’t mean someone won’t.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=teddygirl;7677597]
I really don’t think it’s about the money. Some years ago there was a thread on Mandiba here on COTH and some of his people came on here and explained how he’s so well bred and really can do it. Many posters here talked about how unhappy the horse looked and that it could be dangerous. This was well before his bad fall. Seems to me they’re trying to prove a point.

Anyway, I can’t imagine anyone foolish enough to lease him at the point. Which doesn’t mean someone won’t.[/QUOTE]
of course it’s about the money. Look at the mileage and training and connections this horse has. There will be someone out there, including the YR[s] likely campaigning him, that are willing to throw $$ his connection’s way.

I feel really sorry for this horse. His heart just doesn’t seem to be into eventing, and his connections should realize that is okay.

[asterix]

To the person who asked about entries and whether a horses’s record is taken into account, yes and no. Hopefully someone closer to the upper levels will answer you with more accuracy but I didn’t want your question ignored. For the upper levels, yes, the horse has to be qualified, which basically means having successfully completed several events at the level below. I think that rider and horse falls do require the horse drop down a level (or 2 incidents a year, or something like that). So there are some standards but it is objective, not subjective. You don’t just look at a horse’a record and decide whether or not to accept an entry.

[DoubleTwistedWire]

[QUOTE=teddygirl;7677597]
I really don’t think it’s about the money. Some years ago there was a thread on Mandiba here on COTH and some of his people came on here and explained how he’s so well bred and really can do it. Many posters here talked about how unhappy the horse looked and that it could be dangerous. This was well before his bad fall. Seems to me they’re trying to prove a point.

Anyway, I can’t imagine anyone foolish enough to lease him at the point. Which doesn’t mean someone won’t.[/QUOTE]

Are you thinking of this thread, from after he fell at Badminton and broke 6 ribs? Both Max and William Micklem posted on there, around pages 9/10.

I’d wager it’s more about hubris than money. Goodness knows its not like you win much eventing.

[akor]

I probably should stay off this thread for this, and so, the question is, why even post, but did want to comment that when I was looking for a horse to help me get to training level (which means I have no business even musing about riding a horse at anything with a * after it in their record), it did matter to me what the struggles had been at the upper levels (in my price range, which was on the low end, the only upper level horses were the ones with spotty records at ULs so those are the ones I looked into). Horse or Rider falls were a big concern to me. Horses most of all. Stops, or run outs, not as much. There was at least one horse that was nearly perfect at prelim but just didn’t go intermediate. Well, either did or did not, as in double clear or E or double digit scores, but mainly those. No falls…just stops and a run out I recall. That would not really worry me at all for my goals. Horse was “just” topped out at prelim and that would have been plenty. I would never expect to get to Intermediate with that horse though (pretend for a moment that I’m suddenly a great rider…) I do want a horse (and luckily found one) that knows when to say “no way lady…”, but also tries her heart out to make it over whenever she can.

I’m total armchair with this particular horse, but as a casual observer, it does seem like some human needs to intervene and find a level he’s comfortable at. If they have a competent ammy take him around a 2 - 3 trainings and he has stops, forbid a fall, then it does seem like it’s time to let him do something else.

Or, maybe it’s the succession of jumps in an event that does get him rattled, so someone looking to school a lot of prelim/intermediate would be Ok with him. If it’s a “bad” day, just work on flatwork. I am not sure what the market is for that type of horse.

[DinkDunk]

No comment on Mandiba - but all I can think of when I see that title is Ice Ice Baby.

Will it ever stop? Yo, I don’t know…

[Invested1]

[QUOTE=DinkDunk;7678239]
No comment on Mandiba - but all I can think of when I see that title is Ice Ice Baby.

Will it ever stop? Yo, I don’t know…[/QUOTE]

OMG, I literally opened the thread to write the same thing!!! :lol: