Maybe so, and it might also be a welfare issue. Fewer average horses who cannot compete reliably, and end up in the slaughter pipeline. I stood a very well bred, but unsupported TB stallion decades ago. Do I believe that he sired a bunch of winners? Nope. I do not even think that they made it to the track. He moved to a local TB breeders farm, and died there.
Should local breeding farms exist? Sure. But there is nothing to say that they have to stand their own studs.
Sorry, but this is a hill Iâm willing to die on.
Fewer âaverageâ horses means less genetic diversity 100% of the time.
There are many, many, many GOOD sires of runners and winners who are not âcommerciallyâ successful. They sire useful horses that pay their way and are not just flooding up the slaughter pipeline.
(These are also often the horses people are now buying for $5,000+ from resellers and taking to the makeover.)
Every now and then, one of these horses âfreaksâ and makes their way back into the commercial breeding pool, bringing in new and old lines that would have otherwise been lost.
But the only reason people are breeding these horses in any quantity is because the commercial market isnât available to everyone right now. You level the playing field with AI, you are going to see everyone breeding what the market wants and thatâs it.
Oh, I see where I misunderstood what you were saying there. Iâm sorry. My mind went straight to regional racing without considering the regional sales. The two are certainly related. I think you know my opinion on breeding for sales. Itâs unfortunate racing faces so many issues, and like other equestrian sports there are multiple problems at factor and no one definable solution.
Iâm not so confident AI would level the playing field the way you envision it, but that is one of the areas we disagree - I guess it has to happen at some point on this forum. 
I am in full agreement about the necessity of regional sires for the gene pool. They are my bread and butter as a rider and Iâm painfully aware of that. If only there was a way to allow racing to step into this century, without risk of losing genetic diversity or shutting out those who canât afford the commercial market.
The stallions that I have seen advertised in PA, New York, Maryland, FL etc. are generally by well known KY studs, so the diversity point goes right out the window.
Yes, TB makeover is fantastic- no question. How many horses are purchased for it, and how many compete, and move on in those careers?
Those dependable lower tier horses- where do they end up after getting used up on the track? Yes, I do know that there are a handful that are kept by the trainers, owners or go back to a home with a breeder. Those are the minority.
If a TB foal crop is now hovering around 30K horses, tell me about those who will be protected for their lifetimes? Once again, I realize that the TB world is doing a far better job than most larger breeds, But, there is no safety net that can protect them all.
The North American foal crop is nearly half what you estimate: 18,000 in 2023. I realize you may be citing what I said above about mares bred, but mares bred does not equal registered foals because⊠horses. 
I know from previous conversations that you and I donât see eye to eye on the state of slaughter in this country. I am proud of the change we have seen reducing slaughter of TBs; I know you are still critical. Thatâs ok, I think we just have to agree to disagree.
Re: genetic diversity. I donât know how to articulate this in a way for people not currently involved in TB breeding to understand. Iâm going to do a bad job. Maybe someone else can help. But bottom line: the TB has always been inbred. But state-bred programs allow a greater variety of lines to persist, especially through the dams.
Iâm not sure if theyâre going with them still, but a friend of mineâs daughter bought two OTTBs to show in the makeover in barrel racing. She showed both and won it last year with one of them. They hauled to Kentucky from Ontario to participate. It wouldnât surprise me if they did the same this year.
The first TB stud book, the âGeneral Stud Book,â started in 1791, so that is 2 and a bit centuries of recorded and documented breeding and results.
People have been breeding ârace horsesâ for thousands of years., but that is not the same as the documented breeding data of TBs
The first General Stud Book was based on breedersâ personal stud books so records extended back into the 1650s for some families. But indeed, I canât count! Sorry.
As I understand, most states now requires a breed back to an in- state stallion, if you ship out for a foal from a stallion in another state. So using those rules, there would always be a need for good in- state stallions. States could modify their rules to make them even more stringent for those states with really good breeder programs.
It makes all the sense in the world to me to be able to collect a stallion that has to breed 3 or 4 mares a day. No one wants to be the last mare in the shed at 10 pm at night; theres nothing fair about it, and farms definitely take care of their favorites when lining up breedings for the day to a popular horse. So much easier to take a collection or two and split it between the 3 or 4 mares at one time.
I dont live in KY, but I have a mare that I like to breed in KY. I do not like shipping a mare and foal to KY, so when she has a foal, she doesnt get bred back. Thats a loss of a year to me, and a loss of a stud fee to someone in KY.
If they would let farms use AI (and I never see it happening), it doesnt mean farms would have to use if, if they dont want to. But for safety reasons for people and horses, streamlining a cumbersome process, I think it would be a great idea.
ET is allowed in Standardbreds (has been for over 20 years⊠not sure when it started but I know a horse foaled in 2001 who was an ET foal). This kind of thing doesnât happen because only one foal per donor mare can be registered each year.
From what Iâve read, the reason it works out okay in STBs is that no one is interested in suing the registry to force them to lift the limits on stallion books or number of foals out of a single mare.
The Jockey Club just recently tried to limit stallion books a teeny amountâthey were very quickly sued and it was over turned.
Didnât AQHA also try to limit number of foals out of a mare each year when they started allowing embryo transfer? Someone sued and that was pretty quickly overturned there, too.
Thoroughbreds are just a whole different ballpark than Standardbreds.
Right. Standardbreds also successfully limit the size of sireâs books, which the Jockey Club has had no luck implementing. (Which is the basis of my concern)
Does no one think the price variance between top shelf and regional sires will maintain diversity? I donât believe anyone isnât breeding to a $50,000 stud fee stallion because of the necessity of transporting the mare. The cost of shipping and boarding the mare probably doesnât average out to much difference from the costs of getting her pregnant by AI. I remember when rectals went up to $12 and everyone had a heart attack. Ultrasounds every other day adds up, no one just does rectals anymore. AI is safer for all parties. Easier on older/less sound stallions. Eliminates the need to ship newborn foals so momma can be bred on her foal heat. Seems to me stud fee will still be the driving force in breeding decisions.
Regarding climate change, thatâs why I love N.Y. farms. They preserve large swaths of land from human development and all the pollution that comes with it.
And, I think itâs good for the (my) soul to see pastures unwinding and horses living close to the earth, same for well tended cattle, sheep etc.
We just bought back our old 20YO mare from a killpen last Sunday that was an embryo transfer.
My daughter was livid to find out she was there. Sheâd been talking to her former owner about her weanling colt maybe last month. Weâre going to have her preg checked at the quarantine facility, because heâd tried breeding her last year. Maybe if sheâs in foal, DH might forgive us.
It was but because someone at AQHA screwed up and registered two foals out of one mare, one of which was a ET. I guess the judge thought that set a precident.
There are a very small percentage of âtop shelfâ sires and they are already breeding full books of hundreds of mares per season.
Nothing about that will change with AI. No one breeding horses in Pennsylvania is going, âaw shucks, if only I was closer to Into MischiefâŠâ
But there are hundreds of stallions standing for much more economical fees. A few of them get âtop shelfâ stallion triple digit number of mares each year. Most of them only get a handful of mares.
But suddenly, that affordable regional stallion getting 10 mares a year is in competition with every other affordable stallion in the country. Maybe that means he will get more mares from outside his region, but in reality, what will likely happen is he will end up getting less. Not to mention, the cost of breeding to that stallion will go up- whether the stallion owner absorbs that cost or passes it on to the mare owner. Then the mare owner has increased veterinary costs with a smaller window of time for insemination. That increased cost is a non-issue at big breeding farms with a vet on staff scanning everyone around the clock, but pretty significant for the smaller, low budget operations.
Iâm not anti-AI for other breeding situations. I totally agree there are benefits. For other breeds, it has been a life saver. But knowing how the TB world operates, I see the archaic live cover only rule as a huge benefit countering otherwise unfavorable economic forces. Plus, we really have this down to science at this point. It is such a well oiled machine.
I agree that anyone who can afford to pay the fee on Into Mischief is not worried about sending their mare to KY.
However, letâs consider the type of mares that will go to a local stallion, instead of to a name brand horse in KY. Yes, there are exceptions, however, generally average begets average. Often times breeding the best to the best produces average. The world doesnât need a whole supply chain of average. With what it costs to produce a horse anywhere- the stud fees being the biggest variable, it is truly expensive. It would be nice to see more horses that have a chance of being competitive, and therefore have lasting homes.
Additionally, the local stallion breeding less than a dozen mares a year isnât paying his way, in all probability. Thatâs simply a downward spiral that is going to take the horses and their owner(s) with them.
âQualityâ is relative. âBestâ is relative.
A Kentucky mare is not better in every way than a mare in a regional program. Especially not in 2024 when itâs become so expensive to breed.
Look at some of the horses that came out of regional breeding programs: California Chrome, Funny Cide, Tiznow, Storm Cat, Secretariat
It would be wonderful if genetics were as simple as âbreed the best to the best.â They are not. That doesnât mean people should breed indiscriminately, but one personâs âbestâ might be unacceptable to someone else. The best thing for any breed to to maintain some level of genetic diversity. Unfortunately, economics slaughter diversity.
Also, I disagree that a stallion breeding 10 mares a year is a downward spiral. That stallion may absolutely be paying his way. Also, that stallion getting 10 mares a year might start getting 110 mares a year in the blink of an eye if his offspring impress. Sure, thatâs not the norm⊠but it has happened often enough. It goes the other way tooâ almost all of those stallions who were getting 100-200 mares a season their first few years at stud are lucky to get a half dozen mares a few years later. Itâs not because they are âbad,â itâs because the market wants âbrilliantâ or âchance of brilliant,â not just âgood.â
Quality is universal; best is easily ascertained by wins and numbers.
The handful of exemplary horses from breeding programs outside of KY is just that- a handful. Secretariat was by Bold Ruler- where did he stand?
Saggy and Joppy got Carry Back. Carry Back got nothing as a sire. He is an example of greatness on that limited once in a lifetime experience.
The horse getting 10 mares a year isnât paying for himself, the advertising, and the kind of facility that it takes to stand a stud. If you can give me a percentage on the number of horses that went from 10 to 110 successfully, then your argument carries weight.
We are not talking about the slaughter issue here- we are talking about the finances and realities of raising successful race horses. Define that? They pay for their existence- from conception to the track. Otherwise, the breeders are working at a loss.
Back to the topic at hand- if you can send a horses semen around the country, you are spreading out the ability to get to that horse. Youâve pointed out that you believe that could cause too much inbreeding. Iâm not sure that is the case.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
