Windurra social media

[DMK]

Regardless, it’s incorrect and unfair to define subrogation as “suing”. Order of determination is basic insurance stuff and it’s certainly something the insurer takes into consideration when they underwrite a property like windurra.

That you don’t like it doesn’t change the fact that it’s already baked into the process and will continue to be no matter what your thoughts on the matter are. Also if it’s a significant enough claim, the gig is already up. It’s not like it will be a mystery as to what the origin point of the ambulance ride is, as well as any treating notes by the EMT/treating physicians. That’s going to be part of the claim and treated as a subrogation matter even if you perjure yourself when responding to the legally required COB/subrogation notice.

I have no dog in this fight, but this might be an issue where you are better off being more informed than you previously were.

[Sticky_Situation]

I’m not suggesting anyone should lie about the circumstances of a horse-related injury. I’m just stating my opinion that I strongly dislike that this is how the insurance industry works (and while we may technically “agree” to this policy in signing up for medical insurance, it’s not as though there is a way to opt out, nor is having insurance truly optional). And I realize that my personal opinion will change absolutely nothing, and medical insurance companies will continue to go after anyone they can make pay to recoup their costs, and every year we will have fewer and fewer places to ride our horses … for a number of reasons, but this is certainly one of them.

[SonnysMom]

My back round, I worked in medical insurance for 31 years. IMO subrogation is in part to prevent double dipping.
So the original bill for a horse accident is $100,000. The insurance company pays $40,000 with maybe a $2K out of pocket for the injured party. The lawyer for the injured party goes after the land owner for the $100,000. The lawyer pockets 33% -40% of the $100K. Their client was only out $2K in deductible/copay. Subrogation helps prevent double dipping. Lawyers win, client not so much.

[Sticky_Situation]

It seems much more fair in that situation, when the injured party does clearly intend to assign blame and seek money from the landowner. But if the rider (who has presumably been paying to have medical insurance) does NOT feel that anyone is “at fault” and wants to continue having a good relationship with the landowner so they can keep riding there, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth for their insurance to go after the landowner/their insurance to pay the medical bills.

[Harriet1]

@Sticky_Situation

It seems much more fair in that situation, when the injured party does clearly intend to assign blame and seek money from the landowner. But if the rider (who has presumably been paying to have medical insurance) does NOT feel that anyone is “at fault” and wants to continue having a good relationship with the landowner so they can keep riding there, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth for their insurance to go after the landowner/their insurance to pay the medical bills

Subrogation is one of many ways insurance companies try to keep costs down. I can appreciate people don’t like it. However, if insurance companies didn’t pursue it, we would all potentially have higher rates.

[SonnysMom]

If the injured party wasn’t cooperating with the insurance company how successful do you think the insurance company will be?
If the injured party is saying “It was nobody’s fault, it is just my horse being a horse.” do you really think a judge, jury, or arbitrator is going to give the insurance company money?
Personally in the 31 years in medical claims I have never seen the insurance company independently go after a third party. What I have seen is the insured party sues and the insurance company goes after part of the settlement.

[volvo_240]

After seeing the condition of a horse who went down to be sold many years ago, I was always surprised about how much positive feedback she seemed to get on this board.

We aren’t talking EDH levels of neglect, but she definitely didn’t come back in any better condition or any better trained.

[mvp]

Because non-white men don’t get quite the carte blanche that white ones do.

I can’t believe this requires explanation.

[mvp]

@Kirikou

@Harriet1

I mean… what do you expect? A friendly text when someone came to school and left without paying?

Well, yes?
I run a riding school and like many business owners here spend too much time chasing people down at the beginning of the month or reminding them to update the credit card info when payments don’t go through, etc. However, I always send a friendly text/email to remind people to pay - even to repeat offenders. As in “Little Susie is doing so great in lessons. Did she tell you how she cantered on the correct lead for the first time last Friday?! She was so excited. Just a quick note: I noticed her August tuition payment was declined. Do you need me to send you a link to update your payment info? Thank you!”
If it happens multiple times, they end up not paying at all, or they get snippy and I don’t want to keep dealing with it, then there is “unfortunately no room for little Susie in the next session. So sad, her lesson slot filled up right away and I couldn’t hold the spot without proper payment, sorry” (and I am the only riding school with schoolhorses in a 60 miles radius - so I do have a corner of the market).
No point burning bridges + manners matter.

Sweet Jesus that is way too many syllables spent on asking someone to pay what they owe and explaining why they got cut off!

Because here’s the thing: Non-payers either know they are doing that and think that they can. Or don’t know they are doing that because they don’t care about the business relationship. Either way, no one should have to chase people who clearly don’t value them.

[DogWithBigEars]

Both parties are white. Race is not a factor here. I can’t believe that requires explanation, unless you don’t know who Cooper and Martin are.

[moatsngoats]

Interesting. Any cross country course around here generally requires someone w/ trainers insurance** present/coaching.

[enjoytheride]

I agree with Tabula. I have only seen that they require a trainer/grounds person/another rider in case of emergency. And to sign a waiver of course.

[trubandloki]

@Harriet1

Subrogation is one of many ways insurance companies try to keep costs down. I can appreciate people don’t like it. However, if insurance companies didn’t pursue it, we would all potentially have higher rates.

Not really, because they all do it to each other, so they might get out of paying for this claim, but they will get to pay some other claim… until they cancel all their people and we can’t ride anywhere.

[DMK]

Tell me you don’t know how subro works without telling me…

The value of subro is in not double dipping or funding the same claim twice.

Jane’s horse trailer is rear ended by a car. The car was driven by John. Jane is pretty damn sure John was texting based on the fact that she was keeping an eye on the damn fool when he was behind her. Jane, Jane’s horse, trailer and truck all have injury/damage. Jane is also well insured so all med, vet and collision damage claims are promptly handled by her insurance. But Jane is PISSED and reasonably wants to extract a pound of flesh from John.

Jane sues John. Jane wins a healthy award from John.

JANE DOES NOT GET TO KEEP ALL OF THE MONEY. All insurance companies recoup their losses. If her medical claim was 100K the insurance is first in line because what Jane was suing for was financial damages before any pain and suffering. Tangible losses are first in line. If she paid the claim herself then she would be entitled to the money, but if she gets the dollars for tangible loses when someone else actually paid for those losses, that would effectively be paying twice for one claim.

That is subro. It’s not insurance companies arbitrarily going after third parties. It’s most especially not insurance companies going after third parties when a state specifically has regulations around personal liability notices relating to equestrian activities. Now people who do not like to take accountability for said dangerous activities and who initiate lawsuits can be very problematic for landowners, and let’s be really honest here, that is going to do far more to restrict opportunities to ride on other people’s land.

[Harriet1]

@DMK

Now people who do not like to take accountability for said dangerous activities and who initiate lawsuits can be very problematic for landowners, and let’s be really honest here, that is going to do far more to restrict opportunities to ride on other people’s land.

Indeed.

[Jillsmith]

I have to say, I was surprised to see the barns at Windurra. With the incredible arenas, cross country course, etc., I guess I was expecting something different.

[moatsngoats]

Interesting. What state are you in?

[enjoytheride]

I’m in Area VIII and as far as I know it’s the entire area. A lot of people just school with a buddy system.

[moatsngoats]

Nice! I just checked the bigger local schooling facilities websites and they all state clearly on the website that you must be with a trainer, and the trainer must have liability insurance (one specifically stating they must have $1 million dollars in liability coverage). However, I checked a smaller local facility and there is no such requirement. Guessing it’s a facility by facility policy, although like I mentioned all the larger facilities nearby that offer XC schooling require it.

ETA I just looked at the Windurra website and there’s no mention of needing trainers insurance. So maybe a regional thing as well.

[Mounted]

Most of the facilities I am familiar with in Area 2 also only require a ground person, not a trainer. For example:

Loch Moy: https://themarylandhorsetrials.com/schooling-at-loch-moy-farm/

Win Green: https://wingreenxc.com/xc-schooling/

Waredaca: https://waredaca.com/main-menu-page/schooling-at-waredaca/cross-country-schooling/

Flora Lea: https://floraleafarm.com/services/

Full Moon: https://fullmoonfarm.com/services/cross-country-schooling/

Horse Park of NJ: https://esdcta.org/shows-events/cross-country-schooling/ (schooling only allowed on specific days)

And as far as I know, none of the events in the area that offer XC schooling immediately after competitions (such as Morven or Middleburg) require a trainer, only a ground person.