Trial a flocked 500 before you buy one. Or just go with the Cair Pro as you know she’s happy in those.
Have you ridden in a fake leather Wintec? You, not you on this horse. Have you ridden in a fake leather Wintec in the winter? You might not like it, or you might not notice any difference.
I have not plunked my buns in a Wintec Pro, but I have ridden in a 500, a 250, and Isabell. The 500 is a very comfortable saddle, but are you looking to do dressage mainly? If you are I would not recommend this saddle.
You didn’t specifically ask about the 250, but I did not like the full synthetic leather feeling nor the style.
I love my Wintec Isabell CAIR saddle and so does my mare! I wasn’t sure about the faux suede nor the CAIR panels, but fortunately my instructor has an older Isabell CAIR and let me borrow it for a couple of weeks before I decided to buy one. My mare moves so much better, and this saddle puts me in a much, much better position than my old saddle. I use this saddle on most of the other horses I ride… There is only one horse that this one doesn’t seem to fit.
Agree, if she is happy with the Cair Pro then get it. The 500 may not fit the same and the flocking will certainly give it a different feel to her and to you. Try the 500 with flocking on trial, if you or your horse doesn’t like then you know which one to buy, if you both like it then decide which one you both like best, but I would side with getting what works best for the horse first. If you aren’t feeling the same pogo effect that you did with your Isabel then the Cair might be fine for both of you. I like that the Cair panels are a flatter and fit a flatter back horse better. I have no preference it’s what works best for the horse.
I have a Pro with Contourbloc and CAIR that I purchased used this year for under $500. I like it a lot and my instructor likes me in it a lot. I have no complaints about the CAIR panels so far and my horse seems to be going better than in her flocked and foam panel saddles I had prior. I don’t feel like a pogo stick; the only thing I notice is that it makes the seat kind of hard, if that makes any sense. But they are still comfortable to ride in.
I went with the CAIR because I was hearing mixed reviews on Wintec’s flocking from saddlers. Apparently their flocked models have a hard, tightly packed “sock” of synthetic material, which defeats the purpose of flocking. I’ve read online that CAIR can be replaced with true flocking by a competent saddler for a few hundred dollars, so if I ever have an issue, I plan to go that route.
Years ago, the 500’s fake leather was slippery. I did not enjoy it when I used one. But their material has been improved-- I have a new Wintec AP Pro (also with CAIR) that has fake leather on the back half of the flap, and it has a much better grip than their old material. I’m assuming new 500 Dressage material rides similarly, plus they added the grippy equisuede to the knee. I personally LOVE the grippy equisuede; it makes me feel like I have the best full seat breeches on no matter what I’m riding in.
I spent YEARS going through dressage saddles of all brands until I finally bought the Pro. For me, it is even a better fit than the Isabell because the seat is a bit more open.
My saddle fitter hates CAIR or other air filled saddles. My horse has high withers, dips behind the withers and wide shoulders. Finding a dressage saddle that fits that and fits me too was horrid. Then I found an older Schleese with air. It is so comfortable for him. It fits to the contours of his back beautifully, Even my saddle fitter thinks it is the right saddle for him.
I’m not sure if you can adjust the air in the CAIR panels? There is an art to filling them and if they are too full they will be bouncy and hard on your horses back. Think of lying on an air mattress - if it is filled to the max you bounce on it - it needs to be just a bit soft.
No, I have not ridden in their fake leather, ever. Thinking back on it, every single Wintec I’ve ever been in, was the suede.
Why would I ‘might not like it’ in the winter??
@Texarkana the open seat of the Pro seems to also be a ‘happy point’ for my mare. Green as she is I think she doesn’t have the muscling to support the way a deep seated saddle puts the rider.
I do not, however, want the Contourbloc… We are still at the stage where being able to shorten my stirrups significantly is a must-have; the regular Pro allows this without my knees going shooting over the blocks.
IIWM…
I’d go with the synthetic/suede. Extra stickability on a green horse is never something I’ve regretted. Ever.
With a changing, green horse in mind, flocked panels would be my choice over CAIR. I have great things to say about FLAIR (primarily used in Schleese saddles a while back, as PDDT mentions), but they are adjustable, whereas CAIR is not. Wool would certainly allow more room for adjustment and probably better resale value if you need to pass it along in the future.
Why not the reg fake leather in winter? Ans - it gets COLD and STIFF. I had the old Wintec Pro with equisuede and felt very secure in it. had to get rid of it when tree broke. Wintec fixed it but it took FOREVER and I had to buy a saddle to use in the meantime. Your problem with the Isabel might not have been the CAIR, it might have been the way the seat on the Isabel put you. I tried the Isabel and after one lap of the arena I couldn’t get out of it fast enough, but loved the Pro.
As for adjustability, the new CAIR saddles come with the ability to put wool shims in front and back for some additional fitting flexibility. Not quite the same as you would have with flocking but def an improvement in the system. I vote go for what your mare is telling you she likes.
I love my wintec pro, I was wary of the cair panels but found the only horse I didn’t like it on was a barrel shaped horse. Maybe I would have felt differently in the wintec wide on him but yeah, pogo stick? I felt more like a yoga ball on him haha but everything else I liked it on–I bought as an alternate to my Albion. I wouldn’t buy a 500 because part of the thing I like is the stickiness of the suede for young and unknown horses.
I guess it’s going to be the Wintec Pro then… I agree with you @Heinz 57 & @ladyj79 - a little extra stick on the young’uns never hurt anyone!!!
:lol::lol::lol:
Another option is to find a used Bates Caprilli dressage, which is basically the leather version of the older Wintec Pro. In your shoes, I’d probably try to snag one of those and have it reflocked by a good saddler.
But if the horse likes it, then go with it. I used to have an older Wintec Pro with Cair, and my gelding HATED it despite it appearing to fit him well, but it worked fine on a friend’s horse I was riding at the time. I currently have a Bates jumping saddle with Cair and my current mare is perfectly happy working in it, and it didn’t seem to make her back sore or anything, but the jumping saddles always seem easier to fit than dressage saddles.
@outerbanks77 I have wondered about that too - that jumping saddles seem easier to fit than dressage. Why is that?
I will see if I can find a Bates Caprilli, have not ever looked at those.
I don’t think jumping saddles impede the shoulder as badly; look how many hunter riders still place their saddles right on top of the shoulder without negative reactions from the horse. I suspect it’s because the stirrup bars end up further back along the length of the panel because of the forward flap.
Also probably because there is more forgiveness with weight distribution when you’re riding forwardly and not sitting/driving with your weight from behind.
Jumping saddle fit is nowhere near as rider specific as dressage saddles. I have tried some dressage saddles where I could not even ride comfortably despite the saddle being the proper seat size… pommels hitting my crotch, cantles that make me lean, flaps that don’t accommodate my proper stirrup length, etc. My horse isn’t going to go well if I’m unbalanced in the saddle from the get-go.
The wintec pro is actually the bates innova if you are looking for comparable. I would buy a bates innova, I wouldn’t buy a caprilli dressage. But that’s me, and as Texarkana pointed out dressage saddles are more particular.
A lot of people put dressage saddles too far forward so that they interfere with the shoulder. I was taught to put it about a hand’s width behind the back of the shoulder blade. I think that jumping saddles are designed so the flaps contour enough to leave room for the shoulders to move while the saddle sits where it should be on their back.
You said your horse likes CAIR and goes better in it, but you feel like you are riding a pogo stick. Bouncing around on her back is still a fit issue and I wouldn’t buy a saddle if it didn’t suit both us of. Your seat has so much influence on her movement that bouncing around, even just a little bit, is going to affect her back and her movement. If she’s green and not muscled up, CAIR and interchangeable gullet plates still don’t give you much room to adjust the saddle as she changes. And what she is happy with now she may hate down the road as her back develops.
@walktrot the pogo stick was in the Wintec Isabel, that I had some years back, on a different horse. What I’m using now, on this horse, I don’t have that feeling.
And I agree with you that what works now might not work later - one big reason why I’m looking to shop cheap at the moment!!
As for an actual Bates, I dunno… I’ve never sat in one, ever. And even tho they are the same company, things can be different in different product lines.
I also don’t want those big huge blocks - so the Innova is out.
Somebody just give me a million dollars… then I am SURE I can find a saddle that suits us both!! :lol::lol::lol::lol:
The flaps can go over the shoulders, it’s the position of the points relative to the shoulder blades that determines the saddle position. The actual tree point should be a few fingers behind the shoulder blade, but there can be saddle in front of the point that is soft/flexible material that doesn’t impinge upon the scapula.
I haven’t quite worked out why jumping saddles seem easier to fit, but I do think, like a previous poster mentioned, that it has more to do with the rider position and weighting over the saddle. The panel shape on a dressage saddle seems more crucial because more of the weight is taken by the back part of the saddle, rather than hanging most of the weight off of the stirrup bars. By the same token, dressage saddles seem harder to fit to the rider as well because the rider is making full contact across the entire seat and upper leg, so the twist and seat shape are more crucial than for a rider that is sitting in a forward seat or riding in 2-point most of the time.
OP, you might as well go with the Pro… “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” Then if you get the itch for leather in the future, you can investigate the comparative Bates models.
I don’t blame you for not wanting the big blocks, it’s a total personal preference. Plus, dressage saddle fit can be so tricky and it’s one more thing to affect rider comfort. But I have grown to love blocks. I grew up riding in flat, slick saddles and initially eschewed the padding trends. Then I realized I’m not a fearless 18 year old anymore. They help my position because my leg has a tendency to creep way out in front of me, especially if my horse is feels like she’s going to start misbehaving. If I feel my knee hit the block, I know my position is completely out of whack. And if my horse does lose her marbles, between the equisuede and the blocks, I’m more likely to be able to ride through it before it snowballs into some big thing.
I’m not trying to change your mind, I just like to extol their virtues!
@Texarkana Oh no, I totally get what you’re saying!! My County has large-ish,full length blocks, and a very deep seat. While learning changes, etc., on my gelding, I really appreciated all that, as it was easier to stay on him!! :lol::lol: (he can really leap around).
I’m not a fearless 18 y/o anymore either… :no:
Anyway, cost is a huge consideration right now, so Wintec it will be. Besides that, I like to trail ride and I’ve used my County for that…but… I think scratches on a Wintec would make me less unhappy!
Thanks for the links/pics. That does help.
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