Winter Challenge

[snaffle1987]

I Stated he was the best horse in north America in a very long time. Secretariat raced quite a LONG time ago.

Secretariat was a beast but how many races did he lose on his path to retirement? He was 2nd in the Wood, 2nd in the GII Whitney, Third in the Wood, 2nd in the champagne: Out of 18 “Stakes” races raced: graded and not graded. Yes, he was tremendous. He made 21 starts in his career with 16 wins and he lost 4 times and DNP once.

California Chrome has made 26 starts, with 16 wins, 4 places and 1 show. Equally impressive if you ask me. Yes he has not put on a show like Secretariat did in the Belmont but looking at his record, $earned, etc and it’s pretty insanely impressive! Me thinks if this horse had seen this much success in the barn of Bob Baffert; we’d be calling him the GOAT; but in the barn of Art Sherman and owned by what some deem an a-hole and everyone shakes him off as a has-been

[snaffle1987]

Shared Belief better? oh my… While I loved that horse and I loved his pedigree; his record doesn’t exactly scream Greatest to me. While he does have an impress 10 wins in 12 races (2 races DNP/DNF); looking at the races he won; the most impressive one being the Breeders Cup; he was 4th.

Los Alomitos Derby had no one special in it.
The only someone regular name he raced against in the cashcall was Kobes Back. Pacific Classic Stakes I grant he raced against some talent with Game on Dude in there.
Awesome Again Stakes: who exactly was his competition in this small field?
He lost to both CHROME and Bayern in the Breeders Cup
Malibu Stakes: his only competition here was Conquest Two Step and Chitu
San Antonio Stakes is one of his more impressive wins: against Chrome and Hopportunity
His final win was against hard aces but really, another dismal field

He was great horse, a solid campaigner in stakes races but the races he won were hardly stellar when looking at the depth of his competition. If he had another season under his belt I think he had a lot more to prove.

This is like saying Arrogate is the best we’ve ever seen. A great horse he is but he has lot, LOT more to prove of himself.

[frehley]

[QUOTE=snaffle1987;8978730]
Shared Belief better? oh my… While I loved that horse and I loved his pedigree; his record doesn’t exactly scream Greatest to me. While he does have an impress 10 wins in 12 races (2 races DNP/DNF); looking at the races he won; the most impressive one being the Breeders Cup; he was 4th. >

With all due respect, nobody with an open mind is going to fairly look at Shared Belief’s Breeders’ Cup where he was SLAMMED twice. How can someone think that did not impact the outcome of the race? He still finished fourth, and Chrome third (with an unimpeded trip). And look at how he blew by Chrome in the San Antonio.

Whom did Chrome beat that was outstanding? Dortmund on a downward slide??? Danza? Ride on Curlin? Where are they now? Frosted? I love Frosted, but he was either brilliant or not even in the money. He was the only real competition in the DWC and he pretty much did not show up that day. Chrome wins brilliantly when he has it all his way.

I never said Shared Belief was the greatest horse - sadly, he died before he could even prove his greatness…I said he was the most talented of his crop. And many would agree; in fact, I have read that sentiment from several racing handicappers. It’s not his fault that fate was unkind to him.

Saying Chrome is as good as Secretariat? That is not even close. Secretariat’s records in all three TC races still stand. He dazzled in the most important races. Chrome lost three big races - the Belmont and two tries at the BCC (and also his first trip to the DWC). His Derby time was slow.

Arrogate has the potential to be better than Chrome and also to exceed his earnings record if he ships to Dubai. Remember that Chrome’s inflated earnings come from a first and a second in the world’s richest race. We shall see what happens. In addition to his talent, Chrome has benefited from a lot of luck on his side.

Flame away…but I am not the only one who feels this way. He is a very good horse, but not worthy of being mentioned with the all-time greats.

[snaffle1987]

please tell me where in my post I said the California chrome is/was as good as secretariat?

Dortmund is useless. He’s about as on the money as frosted was. He’s too big for his own good and Arrogate will be in the same boat if he keeps growing on his stick legs.

So what will your verdict be if California chrome slaughters Arrogate in the Pegasus?

[frehley]

[QUOTE=snaffle1987;8978969]
please tell me where in my post I said the California chrome is/was as good as secretariat?

Dortmund is useless. He’s about as on the money as frosted was. He’s too big for his own good and Arrogate will be in the same boat if he keeps growing on his stick legs.

So what will your verdict be if California chrome slaughters Arrogate in the Pegasus?[/QUOTE]

Someone wrote that his record was “equally impressive” as Secretariat’s. I disagree. Plus, Sec retired at three so we have no way of knowing how he would be as an older horse. We can only compare them at three, just like AP. How does one fairly compare a three year old and a mature five year old?

What will be your verdict if Arrogate beats Chrome again? That horse seems to get no respect from Chromies and is vilified beyond belief - just like Tonalist was, and Shared Belief, and Bayern, and Prince Bishop, and anyone else who beat that poor underdog Chrome. One poster said they want to “pay Arrogate not to enter the Pegasus.”

If Chrome wins I will congratulate him on a fine performance, just as I did when he won the Derby, Preakness, and DWC. I still won’t put him up there with the likes of Sec, Man o War, Citation et al. He’s more along the lines of Silver Charm, Curlin, etc., who were outstanding racehorses.

I have never seen anyone call Chrome a “has been”…I have only seen the opposite - greatest ever, most beautiful, best personality (LOL), etc.

P.S. Please do not take my comments as personal. I respect your opinions even though mine are different.

[mommy_peanut]

Freshly,

If you don’t like CC, that’s fine & dandy. Each to their own.
However what I can’t understand is folks like you, who have to jump in on anything relative to CC & start bashing the horse or his connections.
You’re purposely misinterpreting comments to fit your own views.
We get it! We really do! You don’t think much of him. Please move on…

[snaffle1987]

Please do not bunch me in the group called Chromies because I certainly am not. I disliked the horse for most of his career strictly based on his ownership. You can count me in on still not feeling overly attached to the horse because I truly don’t care for Martin. I do, however, love his trainer and think he has done very well with a horse like this and keeping him happy and sound.

I do think he is better than Curlin (who was third in the derby, won the Preakness and was 2nd in the Belmont). Chrome won two of those legs. Curlin was 4th in the breeders cup classic (his last start) and they were both winners of the Dubai world cup.

I do actually like Chrome’s pedigree. I quite like his sire’s pedigree and think he could be a lot better stallion if he had more opportunities to a bigger/more quality book of mares. I quite like Chromes dam, also, with seeing Sir Ivor so close in her pedigree over the Danzig blood. Chase’s sire, Polish Numbers was bred by Ogden Phipps and a half brother to Private Account and Dance NUmber. He was a successful sire who saw increases in his fees due to his success in his career most notably as a first crop sire. Chrome’s Third Dam (Chase the Dream by Sir Ivor) was a stakes winning/Stakes placed mare under D Wayne Lukas.

While Lucky Pulpit never lit the world on fire as a racehorse; he was a consistent campaigner and did well in all sorts of company. I like that Cozzene is his dam’s sire bringing Caro in very close and his maternal line is right there to LUCKY SPELL who was also the grandam of Unbridled’s Song. She was a very successful racehorse.

I think Chrome could grant breeders a very interesting opportunity in the Kentucky market. Not to mention the fact that he is a beautiful specimen to look at conformationally ; as his his sire

[frehley]

[QUOTE=mommy peanut;8979053]
Freshly,

If you don’t like CC, that’s fine & dandy. Each to their own.
However what I can’t understand is folks like you, who have to jump in on anything relative to CC & start bashing the horse or his connections.
You’re purposely misinterpreting comments to fit your own views.
We get it! We really do! You don’t think much of him. Please move on…[/QUOTE]

I honestly did not think I was “bashing” him - I apologize if I have offended you. It’s the stress of the holiday season. I won’t say anything else about CC.

[gotpaints]

@snaffle1987;8979073

I do think he is better than Curlin (who was third in the derby, won the Preakness and was 2nd in the Belmont). Chrome won two of those legs. Curlin was 4th in the breeders cup classic (his last start) and they were both winners of the Dubai world cup.

I’m not getting into the who is better than who debate because it’s subjective, imo, if they don’t face each other but Curlin also won a Breeders’ Cup Classic. Just throwing that out there since he wasn’t just fourth in the race (he was fourth the second year he ran in it when it was on synthetics).

[mommy_peanut]

Freshly

I’m not offended & if that’s not how you meant for your posts to read. Then ok.

While I wouldn’t consider myself a “chromie” (as I think most of them are nuts, lol). I do appreciate CC & his team for what they’ve meant for the sport.
Even with AP winning the triple crown, the sport was still in need of that horse that most “everyday” people can get behind. CC/Art give that to the fans.

I’m really hoping he gets to face Arrogate in the Pegasus. Win or lose it should make for a very exciting race to watch.

[Gestalt]

CC always has the “objectors” talking. He will never be good enough, there are all those what ifs don’t cha know.

Horse dies but if he’d lived and raced he would have been better, horse is younger without the same experiences under his belt but he will be better, etc. CC is out there, racing. Sometimes winning, sometimes not. He reminds me a bit of Spectacular Bid. Better as an older horse and absolutely stunning in the looks department. I don’t care if he even places in the Pegasus, I just want him to retire sound and to live a happy life in gorgeous surroundings. A win would just be icing on the Christmas cookies.