Good point. Although the lawsuit sounds pretty personal, it may not be the people involved at all. Often it’s not the people behind the legal action but the system.
You just haven’t had experience with the right facilities, the right stallions and the right Stallion Owners. 
A lot of it comes down to how the stallion is handled, how knowledgable the handlers are and if the stallions have been taught proper behavior - in and out of the breeding shed.
Three of our stallions have never been pasture bred, live covered, etc. and they are the best behaved boys you could ever ask for. I swear our new junior stallion could be handled and collected by a 3 year old That being said, they are still animals and I am always alert for things that may or may not happen. Breeding stallions is definitely not for the faint of heart, but if they have been properly trained and managed, there is a mutual respect. You were probably best to leave the facility you were at…as it sounds like the stallions weren’t necessarily being handled properly all the time, and that can be dangerous for all involved. :yes:
[QUOTE=Rbow;6506418]
Good point. Although the lawsuit sounds pretty personal… [/QUOTE]
I tend to agree with you. If the news article is accurate, they are suing for “emotional trauma, emotional damages, deprivation of a wife and mother, pain and suffering.” That seems like more than an insurance company recovering costs.
This makes sense to a point, but what about the claim for loss of consortium?
TC story about the mare,
Is there a safety feature (besides a gun) that you could use if a stallion loses it and attacks the mare in LC? I was thinking massive shock collar…
[QUOTE=stoicfish;6506483]
TC story about the mare,
Is there a safety feature (besides a gun) that you could use if a stallion loses it and attacks the mare in LC? I was thinking massive shock collar…[/QUOTE]
I was thinking along the lines of cattle prod… Hope you never have to use it, but have it on hand just in case. Might have worked in the case of one horse savaging the other, however it sounds like the majority of incidents are not “ongoing attack” situations. They’re more like one quick blow to the right (wrong) spot.
Sounds like helmets and full body protectors would be a good protocol, as well as making sure that everyone involved was alert, aware of the risks, and well schooled about where they should be and when.
At the end of the day though, accidents will happen and it sounds like a part of the inherent risk of horse activities.
[QUOTE=Cartier;6506477]
I tend to agree with you. If the news article is accurate, they are suing for “emotional trauma, emotional damages, deprivation of a wife and mother, pain and suffering.” That seems like more than an insurance company recovering costs.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;6506373]This is such a shame. So sorry to hear about loss of life. With time and experience, I can see how horses can hurt or kill in a myriad of circumstances in the blink of an eye and with no malice toward their humans.
I realize now that the half dozen or so times I held a mare for live cover by a friend’s stallion in the late 70s, early 80s wearing no head covering, given no real instructions, no information of how things might go south, etc. that I was risking my life without knowing it. Wow.[/QUOTE]
I considered myself to be an experienced horse owner when I was asked to help a friend breed her mare to her stallion, both small Arabs.
The mare who was teasing the stallion, vet checked in heat and “ready to breed” wanted ABSOLUTELY NOTING to do with the stallion mounting her. BTW she was not a maiden. I had a good grip on chain shank and twitch with one hand and ear with the other when the stallion came up and over and got me in the face with a front hoof. No malice on his part, I just couldn’t get out of the way quickly enough without letting the mare go.
In hindsight I should have let her go.:eek:
Well, even geldings can be savage. We watched a gelding tear into a mare and the only thing that saved her life was she happened to be able to spin and turn faster than he could and she raced for the gate where her owner was standing screaming her name (yet one more good reason to always teach your horses to come when called by name), and the owner opened to let her fly out. She was covered in cuts, bruises, and missing hair and heaving so hard we thought she would have a heart failure. In the end, she survived, but it was a very scary close call. Another friend had her gelding suddenly turn on her older mare that was living with him, for some unknown reason, and he killed that mare. She put him down that afternoon.
People just do NOT have the acuity of the senses to even have half a clue what is really going on. We like to think we understand a fair bit about horse behaviour and social language, but reality is, it is far more complex than we give the horses credit for.
I am totally against live cover and I think registries like the Jockey Club needs to wake up and utilize the technology that is available and it would save a lot of lives and injuries. Even collections needs to be done efficiently, competently, and with experienced people present. Any stallion, and I do mean ANY stallion, even sweet ol’ Jake who never puts his foot wrong, can have a moment of sexual frustration and the end result of that is aggression. That is the natural par for the course of that particular circumstance. Humans participating in the procreation of horses put themselves in very severe danger - there is nothing more dangerous than the hormone driven act to procreate - whether it’s live cover or artificial collection. Even more, because we’re all creatures of biology, any number of things can go wrong - heart attacks or other medical distress can afflict the handler, or something medical afflict the horse and cause the horse to fall on the handler, emotional issues at hand, whatever. Horses have an extremely keen sense of smell and can notice things taking place for miles away carried on the wind. Many, many, many things contribute to a horse’s behavior in our evnironment and we are just at such a severe disadvantage.
[QUOTE=JWB;6506522]
At the end of the day though, accidents will happen and it sounds like a part of the inherent risk of horse activities.[/QUOTE] I was thinking this too… there is an assumed risk…
I was out in the paddock with our stallion this morning… just to say “hello” and love on him. I have known him since the moment he first drew breath, years ago… I trust him, he trusts me, he is a perfect gentleman… those who are around him would say the same… but he is on a farm with about 30 other horses, there are so many things that might inspire him to act out in some novel manner. It is not possible to 100% guarantee what he may do in a given moment, much less what he might do in a moment of passion. Again, I understand that grief makes us do strange things, but you have to think that the woman who died must have had a passion for horses or she would not have been in the situation she was in… I would think that in her memory this should all be settled.
When I was growing up it was ALL live cover at the barns I worked at and NONE of the stallions were difficult to breed.
The owners didnt WANT to breed anything difficult or scary and if a mare was too nasty they refused based on the fact that their stallions were too nice to risk it.
With AI people can get away with breeding SERIOUS witches of mares and I see breeders using stallions that are just as terrible.
Temperment used to be of great importance than it is now IMO.
Not saying this was the situation but saying this about the things someone said above.
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;6506709]
With AI people can get away with breeding SERIOUS witches of mares and I see breeders using stallions that are just as terrible.
Temperment used to be of great importance than it is now IMO.
Not saying this was the situation but saying this about the things someone said above.[/QUOTE]
<grin>…Well, are you sure it’s not a matter of how people deal with, handle and discipline their horses? Seriously! Look at how me peoples’ kids behave!!!
Temperament is everything with our own animals, but I cannot tell you how often we get animals in to deal with that truly just have not ever had someone tell them that walking all over me is NOT okay!
[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;6506854]
<grin>…Well, are you sure it’s not a matter of how people deal with, handle and discipline their horses? Seriously! Look at how me peoples’ kids behave!!!
Temperament is everything with our own animals, but I cannot tell you how often we get animals in to deal with that truly just have not ever had someone tell them that walking all over me is NOT okay![/QUOTE]
I agree with this… while temperament is a consideration in a breeding decision, I think that how the horse is handled makes a huge difference. I recall a very well-known local stallion… who became a bit of a terror … and most of us who witnessed things unfolding over the years would attribute it to the owner.
We see that animals often reflect the neurotic tendencies of their owners. The fix, for lots of temperament problems, is an adjustment in how the owner deals with the animal, rather than some innate characteristic of the animal.
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;6506709]
When I was growing up it was ALL live cover at the barns I worked at and NONE of the stallions were difficult to breed.
The owners didnt WANT to breed anything difficult or scary and if a mare was too nasty they refused based on the fact that their stallions were too nice to risk it.
With AI people can get away with breeding SERIOUS witches of mares and I see breeders using stallions that are just as terrible.
Temperment used to be of great importance than it is now IMO. [/QUOTE]
Not sure what breed you were involved with, but there is very little concern for temperament in the TB industry as long as they run fast. There are plenty of stories about TB stallions savaging mares, and breeding handlers, and grooms, etc.
It is certainly attributable to handling and training and knowing a bit about stallions – they are different than mares and geldings, particularly if hormonal! I agree, that I had more issues with mares being a problem than my two boys, a little kid could have bred Huntsman. But, stallion handling and training should be done by someone with knowledge about stallions. Geez Louise, most of the young horses that came in to be started when I was doing that didn’t lead properly or stand nicely to be groomed. So many people don’t handle their youngsters or don’t know how. But even with careful handling, some horses are just ones that you can never trust, regardless of gender. I know that genetics has a big part in that. Yes, many retired racing stallions have issues, covered on another thread, but their situations are not always ideal for manners and if their stud fee is 9 figures, disciplining them might not be high on the list. It is a real shame that anyone got killed in a breeding situation, it’s a risky situation just as starting babies or riding is. We all accept the risks and usually are trying our best to be cautious and do the right thing. But not everything is in our control and can happen at mach speed. I hope her family can find some peace as they deal with her loss.
PennyG
[QUOTE=TKR;6506244]
I read the article and what the lawsuit contends - what standard breeding procedures do not allow horses to move during breeding? PennyG[/QUOTE]
That’s what I was wondering! Seriously, how are you expected to be able to keep a horse from moving? Especially during breeding?
I was thinking along the lines of cattle prod… Hope you never have to use it, but have it on hand just in case
I honestly cant see how a cattle prod would work if 1200 lbs is charging full bore at you with ears flat back and teeth bared. You’d be sent flying before he even felt the zap!
[QUOTE=dbolte;6507030]
That’s what I was wondering! Seriously, how are you expected to be able to keep a horse from moving? Especially during breeding?[/QUOTE]
FWIW in most Kentucky TB breeding sheds, a mare is restrained with a twitch/lip chain, and a front foot is held up with a strap or rope. They certainly can still move if determined, but it hopefully will reduce the force of a kick from the hind feet.
I live cover (TB stallion), but it was so much nicer to breed my mare using AI (to a WB stallion) last year.
Very sorry for the deceased’s family I’m sure it was traumatic.
I never bred, but did handle and ride a stalllion or two when I was 10. I learned a healthy respect for them. I think that has helped me quite a bit in my own current situation. I have my own stallion now and am live covering for my own reasons, but continue to and have been very wary and cautious with my boy. Certainly he has been great, but personally as I read the various stories, examples and what not here it reminds me of the danger in a broader light. My stud was never bred so I’ve had to “teach” the man. The mare I’m using has been live covered, but certainly she is not exempt from a cautious eye as well. Thank you all for sharing your experiences- from a lurker.
"Negligently allowed the horses to breed by not using standard and customary procedures that would PREVENT THE HORSES FROM MOVING during the breeding procedure? Good luck with that one, if the judge that hears the case does his/her homework…
A tragedy, no doubt, and the pain of the sudden death of a loved one is terrible. As has been said, horse handling has its risks. Life insurance is a viable option, better than litigation I think.
Tragic. This is a dangerous business.
We pasture breed but the pasture “belongs” to the mares not the stud. They were put in first, established their territory for a few days and then we let the stud in. No problems. Thise mare ready to get bred ran over, the uninterested just kept eating. If we add a new mare we take out the stud, let the mare settle in the herd, and then let the stud back in. I’ve had mares that keep showing season when they are three month along ( they’re having fun and it keeps the stud happy) and one mare who would only let the stud cover her once a season. She was terrible to hand breed but she obviously knew when the time was right when she fot to pick the day.
