WOOOOHOOOO! CURLIN!!!

[ravenclaw]

I love Hard Spun, too. He always runs his heart out and is so consistent. I think 1 1/4 miles is a little too long for him, but whatever. He’s done racing now.

Most of the time, I can separate Curlin from his owners. I like his trainer, so I try to think of him as being Steve’s horse instead of being owned by that unsavory lot. :winkgrin:

I’m sure Curlin’s value went way up on Saturday. It would be sad (and ironic) if he gets retired now because of his win. It was a great win, but I probably would have preferred him to lose if it meant he would keep racing next year.

[Glimmerglass]

[QUOTE=ravenclaw;2767716]
I’m sure Curlin’s value went way up on Saturday. It would be sad (and ironic) if he gets retired now because of his win.[/QUOTE]

My view is that Jess Jackson holds 30% of Curlin yet by way of the structuring actually has the majority control. So if he really is committed to the sport and the promotion of it you’d think he would keep the horse running. The money (at stud) shouldn’t mean a thing to him plus he’d only retire to Jacksons own stables anyhow - no further selling of his breeding rights.

The only reason Penny Chenery didn’t see Secretariat run at 4-yrs old was due to financial obligations on her father’s estate. A huge disservice to all was the removal of him from the track at what could’ve been only the start of his popularity and success.

Why can’t the lessons of history be spoken loud and clear: no top notch US runner in my lifetime has produced at equal or better horse at stud. Period. None. No Affirmed, Alydar, Spectacualr Bid, Secretariat, Dr. Fager, Damascus, et al. (Not that he is in that super league today) I say keep him running and see what he can do at 4. Take the glory from that and don’t salivate over what you might produce mixing him with select mares.

If the lawsuits against the minor owners (20%) results in forcing their stake to be sold, then so be it. Jackson has enough to buy out that share under private treaty without blinking an eye.

[Glimmerglass]

Ooops after I posted the above I ran across the Bill Finley article of today from ESPN “Breeders’ Cup winners soon to be breeding” which says the same things.

As big as the windfall will be when Curlin goes to stud, these men obviously don’t need the money. Why wouldn’t they choose the thrill of owning a horse who could potentially go down as one of the all-time greats over a few more million dollars?

Curlin is just now starting to get good. He was a late-bloomer who did not start as a 2-year-old. He overcame a major obstacle, his inexperience, to win the Preakness and didn’t really blossom until the Classic. As good as he was as a 3-year-old, he would be better next year.

“With Robby (Albarado) on board and Steve (Asmussen) training, I’m sure that we can prove that he’s one of the best in the last century or half century,” Jackson said, mulling what Curlin could prove on the racetrack next year.

Then why not give him the chance?

Also

“You don’t understand people like this,” a prominent bloodstock advisor told me. “Who has the biggest pile of money? That’s how they keep score. They don’t care about trophies.”

That’s too bad. This game used to be filled with great sportsman, people who loved the sport more than they loved their investment portfolios. With the exception of the Phipps family, they’re all gone.

Heck I’d think winning HOY at 4-yr old after just maybe taking the same wins Invasor did plus the Whitney Handicap, Jockey Club Gold Cup again and Breeders Cup’ 2008 would beat any pile of money any day. Plus its not like Curlin would be infertile for having run 1 more year, or is that how some dolts think happens?

I will correct Bill in one remark: let it not go without note that one of the leading persons who bought up Secretariat’s breeding rights and thus forced him into retirement was one of the most respected sportsmen - Paul Mellon.

[Glimmerglass]

Not too long of a wait …

Courier-Journal 10-29-07 “Curlin’s future to be decided soon”

Trainer Steve Asmussen said yesterday that discussions will begin “in the next day or two” whether Breeders’ Cup Classic winner Curlin will be retired to stud or stay in training next year.

[miss_critic]

Regarding Hard Spun not being a 1 1/4 mile horse…yeah, he is what?..like only the 2nd best? I used to think the same thing, but think about it! What other horse ran second in the biggest 1 1/4 races? Who? Hard Spun? Doesn’t sound too shabby to me!

Yeah, maybe he could have been the next Lure at a mile on turf, but I think that awesome horse (and Larry) showed us ALL what he really can do!

For those of you interested in horses that performed at or under thier abilities, see:
http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/

[DLee]

[QUOTE]

Heck I’d think winning HOY at 4-yr old after just maybe taking the same wins Invasor did plus the Whitney Handicap, Jockey Club Gold Cup again and Breeders Cup’ 2008 would beat any pile of money any day. Plus its not like Curlin would be infertile for having run 1 more year, or is that how some dolts think happens?
QUOTE]

He might not be infertile, but he could feasibly be dead. Just saying, as per GW, there is that risk any time he steps on a track, race or workout. Any time. I would think that’s where they have to seriously weigh the risks.

I’m a huge Curlin fan, was thrilled to see him at Keeneland, on the track in the morning, and in his stall, and to see him win Saturday. Maybe he would do great things next year and be safe… maybe not.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=miss_critic;2768970]
Regarding Hard Spun not being a 1 1/4 mile horse…yeah, he is what?..like only the 2nd best? I used to think the same thing, but think about it! What other horse ran second in the biggest 1 1/4 races? Who? Hard Spun? Doesn’t sound too shabby to me!

Yeah, maybe he could have been the next Lure at a mile on turf, but I think that awesome horse (and Larry) showed us ALL what he really can do!

For those of you interested in horses that performed at or under thier abilities, see:
http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/[/QUOTE]

I think I agree with both points here. Yes, Hard Spun would have blown the competition away as a miler, but how many milers have there been that can still finish on the board at the classic distances?? Plus, I can think of a few horses that would be considered “true” 10F horses that have finished behind Hard Spun at that distance (*cough cough Street Sense cough).

Each time Hard Spun ran, he impressed me more. It’s a shame he wasn’t the first under the wire each time, but he was always right there. The horse won at 6, 7, 8, and 9 furlongs in his career and finished 2nd in the biggest 10 furlong races. You don’t see too many horses who can do that.

But this thread is supposed to be about Curlin. I’d just rather talk about Hard Spun.

Hey miss_critic-- thanks for the link on the speed figures! It’s really interesting to see that the slop didn’t really affect any of the winners except the sprinters. Hmmm…

[Glimmerglass]

[QUOTE=DLee;2769469]
He might not be infertile, but he could feasibly be dead. Just saying, as per GW, there is that risk any time he steps on a track, race or workout. Any time. I would think that’s where they have to seriously weigh the risks.[/QUOTE]

If that is truly a concern - him breaking down - then I’d say this to his owners: get out of the business. A stable cannot effectively be run if that is a factor, of any significance, in their minds. Sure waaaaaaay back in the recesses of their minds before the opening of the gates they may for a moment think “what if” but that should never ever be a leading thought.

Having a stable of race horses in training or even broadmares and studs means what - that they’ll be raising horses to play bowling or hopscotch? The name of the game is racing. If there are concerns about footing - then scratch. Fears about a sore leg - then scratch.

There is no excuse to retire a healthy horse who hasn’t yet reach his or her maximum potential. Yes, George Washington broke down. Then again the legendary polo pony of Averell Harriman, sadly tagged with a name out of sync with today of “Gay Boy” was crushed to death by a falling airplane while standing in his stall at Meadow Brook Club.

Said William Averell Harriman, financier, owner of the two ponies: “They were two of the best polo ponies in the world. I raised them from colts. They were priceless.” Time Jun. 18, 1928

[DLee]

Glimmerglass,
The risk of losing Curlin now is a far greater loss financially, obviously, then when he first raced in early '07. It should definitely be a ‘factor of significance’.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=DLee;2770761]
Glimmerglass,
The risk of losing Curlin now is a far greater loss financially, obviously, then when he first raced in early '07. It should definitely be a ‘factor of significance’.[/QUOTE]

Whatever happend to love of the game? His major shareholder has a net worth over $2 billion. I don’t think the financial loss would put him in the poor house. Heck, the shareholders sitting in jail sure don’t have a lot to lose!

Really, how many fatal breakdowns in G1 horses have you seen in the last 50 years? We’ve had a run of bad luck recently, and I don’t think you can blame it on anything but that. Three years ago, with Ruffian only a faint memory, I guarantee no one would have been talking like this.

[DLee]

Maybe I should have said “would be a factor” rather than “should”. I’d be very surprised if they decided to risk him in another season of racing.

I see the fees are out, Street Sense is $75,000, Hard Spun is $50,000.

[miss_critic]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;2769572]

thanks for the link on the speed figures! It’s really interesting to see that the slop didn’t really affect any of the winners except the sprinters. Hmmm…[/QUOTE]

As weak as an arguement as it might be, SS is in the red

[miss_critic]

Judge Rules Interest In Curlin Turned Over to Plaintiffs
http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41822

This doesn’t look good (in terms of Curlin running next year).

[DLee]

What a huge, huge mess. :(:no:

[Glimmerglass]

I for one fully expected their 20% stake to be seized as they owe in excesss of $45 million and seemingly don’t have the money - or won’t give up any details on where their looted funds went. There is a reason why those two have been sitting in a jail for over two months. It’s more of a shame (for racing fans) that Jackson and his partners didn’t fully buy them out as opposed to rolling the dice and seeing what came from their legal issues.

[Glimmerglass]

A classic example of how one of the said and since disbarred lawyers operated, Source: Associated Press Oct 31, 2007:

Federal prosecutors said they may use evidence that attorney Shirley Cunningham Jr. used money taken from clients to endow the [$1M Florida A&M law school] chair, which is the subject of a separate investigation.

Cunningham gave the money to Florida A&M in January 2002 with the condition that the school grant him the position at a $100,000-a-year salary. The school fired Cunningham in 2005 after interim FAMU president Castell Bryant said there was no evidence Cunningham had done any work at the law school.

To keep the names straight, Cunningham is Charles Curlin’s great grandson

From the TB Times of Nov 1, 2007:

From the attorney, Angela Ford, representing the 418 members of the phen-fen class action suit who now own 20% of Curlin:

“This is potentially huge because Curlin is an extremely valuable asset,” Ford said Thursday night. “I haven’t had direct conversations with all the owners, but … we’re interested in collecting and liquidating assets, so we are in favor of selling Curlin.”

However as minority holders of the horse, even if they sold off their 20% stake to the highest bidder that doesn’t necessarily mean the new owner could dictate anything in regards to next steps with his racing or going to stud.

Lawyer Ron is a perfect example of that whereby he’s continued to race despite different ownership stakes in him with different agendas.

[Texarkana]

I am still confused as to why one of the other stake holders can’t just buy out Midnight Cry’s 20%, or why they couldn’t just sell their 20% to the highest bidder and carry on racing… unless of course the other owners don’t want to do that.

What a PITA…

[ravenclaw]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;2776965]
I am still confused as to why one of the other stake holders can’t just buy out Midnight Cry’s 20%, or why they couldn’t just sell their 20% to the highest bidder and carry on racing… unless of course the other owners don’t want to do that.[/QUOTE]
I am wondering the same thing. I’m sure it would have been cheaper and easier for Jess Jackson and George Bolton to buy out the other owners earlier. But I don’t see why it couldn’t be done now unless there is some legal red tape because of the judge’s ruling.

Doesn’t Jess Jackson have the controlling interest?

This whole thing is so sleazy. It’s sad that Curlin’s success has been tarnished because of this mess with his owners. :no:

[Glimmerglass]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;2776965]
I am still confused as to why one of the other stake holders can’t just buy out Midnight Cry’s 20%, or why they couldn’t just sell their 20% to the highest bidder and carry on racing… unless of course the other owners don’t want to do that.[/QUOTE]

I’m Jackson/Bolton/Sanan could buy out the other 20% from the plantiffs however the issue now becomes price. Let’s for the sake of guessing that he could be syndicated for breeding at $40 million. That means the 20% stake is worth $8M and I just don’t see that partnership putting up that money to own 100% and sending him back to the track. Not that such a sum isn’t anything but a drop in the bucket.

Even though they could (1) insure him to recover that buyout money + see a return on their own purchase stake in case of injury and (2) make make back the $8M (if he’s that good) in 2008 racing. Win in Dubai and the Breeders’ Cup Classic plus a couple more races and you’re there … plus he then could be sold for 2009 breeding at a value closer to $60M+.

[holmes]

The other problem is the 400 people are responsible for paying for his keep, albiet their share is probably $2 each - but how is that going to be arranged.