Working off board/horse care - an informal poll

[Simkie]

@Texarkana

I feel like you know the answer to this question.

I wonder if there’s any way to limit your risk, without having to go full on LLC, payroll, etc etc etc.

But, like, getting sued personally because she gets kicked or something in a very fluke accident would suck a whole lot.

Is there any benefit on your property taxes to running a boarding business? Where I am, you can’t get an ag exemption without a “business” of some sort (boarding horses or growing Christmas trees or whatever.) If you’re in the same boat, maybe a little tax relief would take some sting out of the cost & effort to protect your personal assets? Juuuuust in case.

[Baybear]

Why not set up a working student type situation for her and that way you don’t have to worry about getting a horse for her to lease and or own. If you want to get another horse I’d wrap it into a working student situation. A trainer friend of mine has had these sort of working students who have helped her over the years Mostly they help her around the barn - feeding, cleaning tack, getting horses ready for her to ride and then she gives them lessons and taught them other things over the years. One became her assistant trainer teaching mostly beginners and helping at shows. I would set up a system something like that and if you ever needed her to barn sit for you, pay cash

[sailor-sunset]

If she’s on board with it, option A is great. 17 is a difficult age to make a commitment, even more so considering how green she it to the reality of horse ownership. I recently was in this exact situation where I had a lease horse that I worked off each month. The horse “cost” $300 a month for a full lease (low maintenance horse owned by the farm owner so no true board to pay, only ate hay and ration balancer, barefoot, no special needs) but I covered feed chores and other things around the farm. If I was short, I paid the difference. Feed shifts were a set pay rate, then any additional chores were hourly. I will admit this was all under the table as far as a workplace and insurance stuff, but isn’t everything in the horse world ?? /s

Put together an estimate of routine costs per month for this horse, decide what an appropriate pay rate per activity, and offer her the “job.” Put everything in writing. I personally loved doing farm work and horse chores, and I found this agreement much more rewarding for me than a traditional (underpaid and overworked) working student role.

If it goes well and she wants to progress to the next level, then go for it. Many teens and young adults would jump for an opportunity like this.

[Displaced_Yankee]

I get that. But you can write it into your agreement “we only feed hay and grain sourced by Texarkana for the health and wellbeing of the horses”. WE know you know your sh*t. But you may just have to explain it to them…Would a regular board barn allow a discounted rate for bad hay and grain provided by an owner? Maybe…but probably most not.

[Texarkana]

@Baybear

Why not set up a working student type situation for her and that way you don’t have to worry about getting a horse for her to lease and or own.

I could go that route, but honestly, this is something I want to do.

I feel like I was given amazing opportunities as a kid/teenager… the type of opportunities that rarely exist anymore. Now I have the opportunity to do the same for someone else. I would never just open my farm to a random person for this type of deal, but this is someone I know and feel like she deserves a chance to get her foot in the door. Plus, I kind of want to protect her from a lot of the I endured in my youth.

She’s very green so it would be hard to find her the perfect working student spot. I kind of feel like I’m that perfect spot where she can learn without the pressure of someone else’s business/reputation.

I could also wash my hands of this and say, “go buy your daughter a horse and board it somewhere.” But again, they are green, and we all know how badly that can go without guidance. I like the idea of giving them a low pressure option to enter the horse ownership world. I have no problem opening my farm to them, but if I am opening my farm to them, I want to make sure we are all on the same page.

[Texarkana]

@Simkie

@Texarkana

I feel like you know the answer to this question.

I wonder if there’s any way to limit your risk, without having to go full on LLC, payroll, etc etc etc.

But, like, getting sued personally because she gets kicked or something in a very fluke accident would suck a whole lot.

Is there any benefit on your property taxes to running a boarding business? Where I am, you can’t get an ag exemption without a “business” of some sort (boarding horses or growing Christmas trees or whatever.) If you’re in the same boat, maybe a little tax relief would take some sting out of the cost & effort to protect your personal assets? Juuuuust in case.

It’s worth investigating. I already get ag property tax exemption (taxed at ag rate instead of residential). I’m not sure if boarding qualifies to get the sales tax exemption. I looked it up once and at the time breeding and selling the offspring was the only thing that I remember qualified, but there’s a good possibility I glossed over boarding parts since I wasn’t pursing boarding at the time.

[Texarkana]

@sailor-sunset

If she’s on board with it, option A is great. 17 is a difficult age to make a commitment, even more so considering how green she it to the reality of horse ownership. I recently was in this exact situation where I had a lease horse that I worked off each month. The horse “cost” $300 a month for a full lease (low maintenance horse owned by the farm owner so no true board to pay, only ate hay and ration balancer, barefoot, no special needs) but I covered feed chores and other things around the farm. If I was short, I paid the difference. Feed shifts were a set pay rate, then any additional chores were hourly. I will admit this was all under the table as far as a workplace and insurance stuff, but isn’t everything in the horse world ?? /s

Put together an estimate of routine costs per month for this horse, decide what an appropriate pay rate per activity, and offer her the “job.” Put everything in writing. I personally loved doing farm work and horse chores, and I found this agreement much more rewarding for me than a traditional (underpaid and overworked) working student role.

If it goes well and she wants to progress to the next level, then go for it. Many teens and young adults would jump for an opportunity like this.

I’m glad to hear this has worked for you! The farm where I grew up would do the same for teenagers in that interim period of wanting to experience ownership but not at the point to buy a horse for whatever reason. But that was also 30 years ago! Didn’t know if it was still a thing!

I’ve honestly been keeping my eye open for a horse I like that I would want to keep if I had to, but could also be more or less ready to go for my friend’s daughter. She is currently riding my main riding horse, and I’m not unselfish enough to turn over my horse to lease. I have two other horses, but both are too green for her at the moment.

I envision something like an older horse retiring from its main career but is still serviceably sound for a teenager to W/T/C and light trail ride. And when she’s either ready for a more advanced horse or decides she doesn’t want to do this anymore, I would have a “husband horse” type on the property that my young son and his friends could putz around on.

I’ve been keeping my eye out for awhile and I’ve found some horses who are close to that, but there’s always a non-negotiable snag. But I feel like I’m getting close to this horse appearing. (This is how I shop for horses, BTW. The horse distribution system always presents one eventually)

[luvmyhackney]

@Texarkana

I feel like I was given amazing opportunities as a kid/teenager… the type of opportunities that rarely exist anymore. Now I have the opportunity to do the same for someone else. I would never just open my farm to a random person for this type of deal, but this is someone I know and feel like she deserves a chance to get her foot in the door. Plus, I kind of want to protect her from a lot of the I endured in my youth.

You are a great person for doing this.

Just be careful as everyone is ready to sue over anything.

[Texarkana]

@luvmyhackney

@Texarkana

I feel like I was given amazing opportunities as a kid/teenager… the type of opportunities that rarely exist anymore. Now I have the opportunity to do the same for someone else. I would never just open my farm to a random person for this type of deal, but this is someone I know and feel like she deserves a chance to get her foot in the door. Plus, I kind of want to protect her from a lot of the I endured in my youth.

You are a great person for doing this.

Just be careful as everyone is ready to sue over anything.

A very valid fear… and why kids don’t get these opportunities anymore.

[Ajierene]

As far as the lease vs her purchase, I agree that lease is a better option. It sounds like you already have options for a potential sudden extra horse. The reasons to buy and have her lease:

-you have control over the horse that is picked, rather than them showing up with a horse they just think is perfect but most decidedly not- whether or not they ask you to help look for a horse, you cannot control them seeing something randomly online or having a friend of a friend say, “yeah, got the perfect horse (that I want to unload because it’s crazy and you people look naive enough to take)”.

-You can assert control over feeding, farrier, etc - your horse your rules. (I used to get into it with my former trainer over my horse and would sometimes flat out tell her when I was riding her horses it was her rules but this was my horse, my rules).

-You can assert control over training/riding (if needed - we has some lesson horses that had
no jumping or no jumping over 2’ rules due to shady soundness - could they? sure…will they break down very quickly? Most likely).

-Less immediate pressure for Mom and daughter, less stress over what to do with daughter losses interest or college gets in the way, etc.

-Less stress for you - you got something you already have a future plan for, you aren’t stuck with an extra horse unsuitable to you if daughter looses interest. Mom trying to get you to help sell or trying to get you to keep etc.

Good luck!

[AllTheCarrots]

I love that you’re considering this. She’s a lucky girl to have you teaching her and looking out for her development.

Count me as another vote for organizing the work/reimbursement on a task-based basis, with assigned days and times. Teenagers have such magical thinking when it comes to time. “Don’t worry, I’ll get to it. That will take me, like, two seconds” is a common refrain in my house. And then either they DO spend only two seconds (with predictable results), or are shocked (shocked!) when that “quick job” is really a two-hour project and you could see the resulting train wreck from miles away.

As for any future horse, owning it yourself will allow you to maintain control of its location and long-term prospects. If they buy and decide to move Dobbin elsewhere at some point…Unskilled, lackadaisical, newbie horse owners can be a recipe for disaster (horse or human), or even a one-way ticket to the nearest auction.

[Texarkana]

@Ajierene

As far as the lease vs her purchase, I agree that lease is a better option. It sounds like you already have options for a potential sudden extra horse. The reasons to buy and have her lease:

-you have control over the horse that is picked, rather than them showing up with a horse they just think is perfect but most decidedly not- whether or not they ask you to help look for a horse, you cannot control them seeing something randomly online or having a friend of a friend say, “yeah, got the perfect horse (that I want to unload because it’s crazy and you people look naive enough to take)”.

-You can assert control over feeding, farrier, etc - your horse your rules. (I used to get into it with my former trainer over my horse and would sometimes flat out tell her when I was riding her horses it was her rules but this was my horse, my rules).

-You can assert control over training/riding (if needed - we has some lesson horses that had
no jumping or no jumping over 2’ rules due to shady soundness - could they? sure…will they break down very quickly? Most likely).

-Less immediate pressure for Mom and daughter, less stress over what to do with daughter losses interest or college gets in the way, etc.

-Less stress for you - you got something you already have a future plan for, you aren’t stuck with an extra horse unsuitable to you if daughter looses interest. Mom trying to get you to help sell or trying to get you to keep etc.

Good luck!

This is pretty much exactly my thinking. I’m also open to a “gradual release” type deal, lease for X amount of time and if she decides she loves the horse and wants it to be hers, we can work that out.

I’ve had a few good prospects crop up over the past few months, but either they are rehomed before I am ready to commit or they have some deal-breaker for the situation.

[Texarkana]

@AllTheCarrots

Count me as another vote for organizing the work/reimbursement on a task-based basis, with assigned days and times. Teenagers have such magical thinking when it comes to time. “Don’t worry, I’ll get to it. That will take me, like, two seconds” is a common refrain in my house. And then either they DO spend only two seconds (with predictable results), or are shocked (shocked!) when that “quick job” is really a two-hour project and you could see the resulting train wreck from miles away.

Ah, teenagers. So true!

[Texarkana]

@Mcl1

I also always had a set schedule. It sounds like this is really important in your case if the mother is a bit non-committal.

Definitely!

I had way too many schedule-less arrangements in my life. It will be soooo much easier if we firmly set a few days a week when she works. And I do think that’s what mom would prefer; mom really wants her to have a structured job. Mom’s just also the type to momma hen her kids sometimes.

[Mcl1]

Also just want to add that this is such an incredibly generous thing to do. I would imagine that as the costs of everything have gone up, opportunities like many of us had to get involved with horses on a limited budget are few and between. Providing not only the opportunity to be involved with horses, but also teaching her along the way is very nice of you and I’m sure it means the world to her.

[McGurk]

@Texarkana

I’m kind of leaning towards A with the option to turn it into B if they decide they want to commit to horse ownership. Because as I’ve told her mom, she’s at a bit of a crossroads in her life— who knows what will happen when she graduates next year and goes to college.

This. All of this. Have her lease first. It’s the perfect low risk trial run. In the scenario you describe, I can absolutely see you getting stuck with a slow pay/no pay boarder and a neglected horse when the kid goes to college.

Another thought - make sure the kid is on board with everything, that she wants this, and make sure the parent doesn’t dominate the conversation. The parent needs to be there, and be aware of the commitment made, but it needs to be the kid’s deal.

Worse mistake I ever made in a working student was one whose father made the pitch for her while she stayed silent. Turned out the kid, while a very talented rider, was deeply resentful that she had to work for her riding; that she just couldn’t come to the barn, ride and hang out like the more privileged kids. Didn’t work out well.

[mmeqcenter]

I would definitely have her start with a lease, not own.

For the work-exchange, I had a wonderful instructor that did this when I was a teenager for a couple of us lesson students. Just for lessons and free rides, no leases or board, she was not the BO. She issued “credits” per hour of time worked (I believe it was 0.25 credit per hour of work), and then assigned a number of credits for a lesson (1 credit) or a free ride (0.5 credit) that you could cash in whenever you wanted. So, essentially what other people said - assign her an hourly wage and correlate that to your lesson/lease costs. i.e. she gets $15/hour for her labor, so for a $300/month lease and one lesson per week @ $45, total of $480/month, she’d need to work 32 hours a month.

[Texarkana]

@McGurk

Worse mistake I ever made in a working student was one whose father made the pitch for her while she stayed silent. Turned out the kid, while a very talented rider, was deeply resentful that she had to work for her riding; that she just couldn’t come to the barn, ride and hang out like the more privileged kids. Didn’t work out well.

Oh man. Yeah, I can see that going badly!

This girl is definitely on board. I think she would move in if she could.

[Texarkana]

@Mcl1

Also just want to add that this is such an incredibly generous thing to do. I would imagine that as the costs of everything have gone up, opportunities like many of us had to get involved with horses on a limited budget are few and between. Providing not only the opportunity to be involved with horses, but also teaching her along the way is very nice of you and I’m sure it means the world to her.

I wish we had more of these opportunities.

I am passionate that horse-crazy kids (and adults for that matter) need a safe environment to make mistakes and learn. We all need to start somewhere. Unfortunately in today’s world the majority of people only have the options of learning in an extremely structured environment where their interactions are micromanaged or on their own with zero oversight. Most of the “middle” has been lost to legal and economic forces. I get it, but it sucks for the future of horses.

[Texarkana]

@mmeqcenter

For the work-exchange, I had a wonderful instructor that did this when I was a teenager for a couple of us lesson students. Just for lessons and free rides, no leases or board, she was not the BO. She issued “credits” per hour of time worked (I believe it was 0.25 credit per hour of work), and then assigned a number of credits for a lesson (1 credit) or a free ride (0.5 credit) that you could cash in whenever you wanted. So, essentially what other people said - assign her an hourly wage and correlate that to your lesson/lease costs. i.e. she gets $15/hour for her labor, so for a $300/month lease and one lesson per week @ $45, total of $480/month, she’d need to work 32 hours a month.

Did the your instructor pay cash for over-working? Or just add up more credits towards lessons?

I’ve known folks who’ve done it both ways.