Working off board/horse care - an informal poll

[Ajierene]

@findeight

Plus that, people looking to work off board and lessons often seriously underestimate the amount of money it actually costs and the time involved. Then overestimate how much credit they can earn against that working part time…or even full time.

I have found this across the board, though - a dad of a horse crazy teen “bought” a horse from owner/daughter’s trainer. Really nice horse but he paid by leveling an area for the indoor. There was disconnect on both sides.

Dad at one point was annoyed at all the farm work daughter was expected to do to pay for horse and boarding horse. He felt trainer didn’t understand how much it costed to get that work done - and he’s in commercial construction and was using his work vehicles (he owns the company). Trainer felt she was giving Dad/daughter a deal because horse and board were worth more than Dad and daughter’s work output.

[findeight]

@Ajierene

but her husband is a contract lawyer working with huge employers like DuPont so I feel like he knows what he’s talking about.

He would have kind of a conflict of interest since he and wife benefit from your arrangement though. Would not trust in that too much.

[Ajierene]

How would husband have a conflict of interest?

[Bluey]

What has been bothering me in this situation is, in my experience, that kid seems a bit too old at 17 to start the learning to work experience you are going to provide already knowing is just for a bit?

At that age kid should have already learned to work somewhere seriously and not want to work in a barn as a 14 year old high school student would do, plus kid is just going to do that work and riding for some months, not involved as something that may last years for both, kid and the one providing that opportunity.

[Texarkana]

@findeight

Think that you need to do two things before putting too much into this. And leasing is the smartest way to go here, no question.

1. Have a sit down with Mom, DD and a calculator. How much is that horse going to cost each month to lease? What are your costs to board that horse? What is your time worth per lesson? Do that math with them. Then figure out how many hours she will commit to working each week and be sure they understand it is a commitment not wishful thinking. Then you figure out how much is fair. IME it works best to track the hours or tasks then balance that total against the monthly horse costs.

2. Ask that kid how much of the Pony Club manual she has read? Start quizzing her on basic knowledge. I know what she and her Mom say but…teens at that age with doting parents often are clueless how much work is involved for not so much credit and reliability is not a suggestion.

Some of what you have shared is concerning and you are too close to mom as a friend, maybe, to pick up on some nuances in what mom says and how she says it. And then there is Dad, who you have some doubts about from what you have told us.

Plus that, people looking to work off board and lessons often seriously underestimate the amount of money it actually costs and the time involved. Then overestimate how much credit they can earn against that working part time…or even full time.

Great to offer this kid some help but be realistic and, sorry, but if you are doing this partly to get a farm sitter? Does not sound like the best candidate. Not right now anyway.

Last time I worked off expenses I clocked in and out, credit was $10 an hour. Usually put in 8-10 hours a week. Realized it really did not make sense spending days off the regular job doing barn work to credit a few hundred towards almost 1k+ of expenses and that was before costs really skyrocketed. Did continue to work at in barn shows and was cut a check for that time.

Do not forget vet and farrier come on top of that. You can tell that to people but they either do not listen of file it in the dust bin of unimportant trivia. Until they get a middle of the night colic bill.

Totally agree we need to have a sit down of costs. It is definitely a priority.

How far she gets in the book is definitely a good litmus test! Great idea. Although I have no fears about that; the girl is a sponge. Good student, wants to learn.

You have a good point that I am “too close” to the situation. But I also don’t think I’m going into this with stars in my eyes. I feel like I have a good appreciation for the 72 million ways this can go wrong and am comfortable with the risk.

[findeight]

This in response to Ajeriene…

Typically neutral third party legal advice is preferred. You have a business relationship with them that benefits both sides and both sides wish to continue. More objective opinion might be better to depend on…or so my lawyers have told me over the years.

[Texarkana]

@Ajierene

@findeight

Plus that, people looking to work off board and lessons often seriously underestimate the amount of money it actually costs and the time involved. Then overestimate how much credit they can earn against that working part time…or even full time.

I have found this across the board, though - a dad of a horse crazy teen “bought” a horse from owner/daughter’s trainer. Really nice horse but he paid by leveling an area for the indoor. There was disconnect on both sides.

Dad at one point was annoyed at all the farm work daughter was expected to do to pay for horse and boarding horse. He felt trainer didn’t understand how much it costed to get that work done - and he’s in commercial construction and was using his work vehicles (he owns the company). Trainer felt she was giving Dad/daughter a deal because horse and board were worth more than Dad and daughter’s work output.

I think the first time horse owner sticker shock is standard whether you are buying your own, paying all the bills yourself, working off board, etc.

Honestly, part of the reason I want to do it this way for the family is so they have a trustworthy person guiding them through that sticker shock.

So many times first time horse owners end up at a middling boarding barn getting bad advice and racking up unnecessary costs they could have avoided. Being told they need expensive supplements to compensate for the barn’s deficiencies, saddled with big vet bills for illnesses and injuries that could have been avoided, etc. Horses are expensive enough without having to pay for someone else’s costly mistakes!

[Texarkana]

@Bluey

What has been bothering me in this situation is, in my experience, that kid seems a bit too old at 17 to start the learning to work experience you are going to provide already knowing is just for a bit?

At that age kid should have already learned to work somewhere seriously and not want to work in a barn as a 14 year old high school student would do, plus kid is just going to do that work and riding for some months, not involved as something that may last years for both, kid and the one providing that opportunity.

Well what are we supposed to do? We don’t have a time machine.

She has worked. It’s not like she’s done nothing in her life. She’s just never worked in a horse barn.

I don’t see this as a concern. Everyone has to start somewhere.

[findeight]

Well, that is very kind and a great thought.

BUT do they really want your mentorship? Will Dad accept that DD needs to come out whether she wants to or not and will Mom make her come out if it is hot and she will sweat or it is raining and there will be mud?

The family dynamic here is not promising. You are a great female model for DD, her mom not so much right now and Dad could be a stumbling block after the novelty of the horse wears off.

Only so much you can do when working with a whole family, not an independent adult who can sign their own contract. Not usually going to find the whole family on the same page and it can get ugly.

Do not forget your own feelings too. You are bending over backwards here to give her an opportunity. Hard not to have feelings if it does not work out and, as mentioned upthread, it could cost you a friendship if it does not go smoothly. Plus it will be awkward to correct the kid, coach her or del with her missing shifts with Mama Bear lurking.

If you go ahead with it, do a month to month lease as these things typically start of well and go south after a few months.

[Bluey]

@Texarkana

Well what are we supposed to do? We don’t have a time machine.

She has worked. It’s not like she’s done nothing in her life. She’s just never worked in a horse barn.

I don’t see this as a concern. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Didn’t explain properly, I meant looking at this like starting a kid working in a barn seems past for this situation, is more like arranging an almost adult for some time to help along, learn more about horses, exchanging this for whatever that person wants now, perhaps leasing/buying a horse.

Those would be different ways to approach this, why is hard to find a middle ground in what all is required, the situation so borderline?

We had young high school kids help/later provided horses for, two eventually became veterinarians, one went on to work for a top trainer for some years as an assistant, then ended up in an equestrian organization management team, some others went on to work in other fields than horses as adults.

This situation seems a bit past that, why it may use a different set of recommendations.

[FjordBCRF]

@Texarkana At 17, I’m assuming she still has her senior year of high school left to go? Any plans yet for post-graduation? Stay local or go away for college? Apologies if that was stated already and I missed it.

[Ajierene]

@findeight

BUT do they really want your mentorship? Will Dad accept that DD needs to come out whether she wants to or not and will Mom make her come out if it is hot and she will sweat or it is raining and there will be mud?

I mean, I biked to the barn because my mom wouldn’t drive me and I was there every day and as far as @Bluey 's statement - I started that when I was 16. First I just worked to ride, then I cleaned stalls for money and worked to ride, then the barn owner found a “full time” person to clean stalls but that lasted a month.

I don’t think age or family is an issue here. I also think @Texarkana is along the correct line of thinking with leasing a horse. Yeah, it’s possible the child will go to college halfway across the country in a year but if the horse is planned as a permanent resident, then all good.

And for all we know, the daughter will find farm work at that college halfway across the country and get into the Ag game.

I feel like this is a very low-risk gamble.

[Ajierene]

I didn’t get legal advise from husband. I’m just stating that as a lawyer with a lot of skill and experience, he would have objected to having me keep my horse there were it an insurance issue.

As in, unlike a layman, he is more aware of insurance and liability issues and far less likely (based on his professional experience and my relationship with the couple over the last 30 years) to even agree to the arrangement if there were an issue.

[findeight]

One would hope that is true but don’t count on it.

Yes, I am somewhat jaded about any kind of horse business…seen it all, experienced too much of it personally.

[Texarkana]

@findeight

Well, that is very kind and a great thought.

BUT do they really want your mentorship? Will Dad accept that DD needs to come out whether she wants to or not and will Mom make her come out if it is hot and she will sweat or it is raining and there will be mud?

The family dynamic here is not promising. You are a great female model for DD, her mom not so much right now and Dad could be a stumbling block after the novelty of the horse wears off.

Only so much you can do when working with a whole family, not an independent adult who can sign their own contract. Not usually going to find the whole family on the same page and it can get ugly.

Do not forget your own feelings too. You are bending over backwards here to give her an opportunity. Hard not to have feelings if it does not work out and, as mentioned upthread, it could cost you a friendship if it does not go smoothly. Plus it will be awkward to correct the kid, coach her or del with her missing shifts with Mama Bear lurking.

If you go ahead with it, do a month to month lease as these things typically start of well and go south after a few months.

I really appreciate the reality check.

They do want this, too, though. This isn’t just my pipe dream.

I think short-term lease is definitely a good idea to start.

[Texarkana]

@Bluey

@Texarkana

Well what are we supposed to do? We don’t have a time machine.

She has worked. It’s not like she’s done nothing in her life. She’s just never worked in a horse barn.

I don’t see this as a concern. Everyone has to start somewhere.

Didn’t explain properly, I meant looking at this like starting a kid working in a barn seems past for this situation, is more like arranging an almost adult for some time to help along, learn more about horses, exchanging this for whatever that person wants now, perhaps leasing/buying a horse.

Those would be different ways to approach this, why is hard to find a middle ground in what all is required, the situation so borderline?

We had young high school kids help/later provided horses for, two eventually became veterinarians, one went on to work for a top trainer for some years as an assistant, then ended up in an equestrian organization management team, some others went on to work in other fields than horses as adults.

This situation seems a bit past that, why it may use a different set of recommendations.

So you’re saying approach this an adult, not a kid?

Regardless, I don’t think I’d handle the situation differently if I was doing this for a 17 year old or a 70 year old. I would offered fair compensation in exchange for the ability to have a horse here.

Sorry, I’m still missing the age concern.

[Texarkana]

@FjordBCRF

@Texarkana At 17, I’m assuming she still has her senior year of high school left to go? Any plans yet for post-graduation? Stay local or go away for college? Apologies if that was stated already and I missed it.

No firm plans yet. Will definitely go to college and wants to stay local, but hasn’t committed to any school yet.

Mom and I keep trying to nudge her towards my alma mater, haha. She thinks it’s too far away.

[Texarkana]

@Ajierene

I feel like this is a very low-risk gamble

I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees it this way.

I’ve known this family long enough that I don’t think they are going fly off the rails. Sure, there are concerns and unknowns, but they aren’t strangers. I definitely know they don’t appreciate what all goes into horse ownership, but then that’s the whole point of doing this— to help them get started.

I think the biggest risk is the horse itself. There’s always a chance of me getting saddled with a useless horse who is nothing more than an extra mouth to feed, because you know how horses are. But that’s always the risk with horses; me accepting that risk isn’t anything new. That can happen any time you bring a horse home, whether you spend $$$$$ with an expensive PPE or you pick up a retiree for your friend’s DD to ride.

[RedHorses]

I think you’re doing a great thing for this kid. The only thing I’m going to suggest is talking to her on her first day of work, when it’s just you and her. Explain that you consider her an adult, and you will cut her some slack at the start because she is in training, not because of her age. This means things like it is her responsibility to be at work for her shifts, to keep her phone in her pocket, to let you know well in advance when there’s something (school function, big exam, dance, or family function for example) that means she will not be able to work a given day, to call you herself if she’s sick and not let mom do it, etc. Kids may know the rules of employment in a superficial way, but they need it to be spelled out that they are absolutely going to be held to them.

Kids also benefit from having it spelled out that you’re going to throw a lot of information at them and you don’t expect them to remember everything, but you do expect them to remember there was something and to ask about it. Explain how you will handle mistakes they make so they’re not afraid to make mistakes, or to tell you about it. Stuff happens, and it’s how one deals with it that’s the important part.

This discussion will also help you mentally keep yourself in boss and mentor mindset, and away from Mom mindset. At this age a job marks a shift in how kids relate to the world and other people. They often appreciate being seen and treated as genuine adults when it’s made clear that’s the deal.