LadyB - exactly! I had to actually move my D saddle home. It works, promise.
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trot sets with your stirrups 1-2 holes higher than you jump with can also really help you fold angles but keep your leg secure.
If you want to borrow my jump saddle - the stirrups are set a bit further forward than some other saddles to facilitate a more forward balance.
Hang in there!! You are a really dedicated and talented rider. All this learning and growing will pay off!!
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I struggled (and still do sometimes) with closing my hip angle. Not having a proper jumping start plus years of riding stoppers and babies gave me a defensive position, plus I’m tall with a long torso so basically just standing in the stirrups worked for me, until I got my current horse. :lol: To this day my instinct is to just rise up out of the saddle and I have to force myself to close my hip, but what really drove it home was tying my stirrups to my girth and looping reins around the neck for a few gridwork sessions. After I got stable through the grids, we would put together short courses.
Come to think of it, I could use one of those sessions right now to keep that habit in check…
Saving this thread! I have long legs, a 2x4 barreled spooky horse, and a tendency to pinch with my knee and let my leg swing back in order to kick him forward. My current jump saddle doesn’t help, but it’s always been an issue no matter what saddle I ride in. I’m terrible at jumping ahead to the point of where I’m seriously considering using rubber bands to hold my butt back over the seat instead of hovering near the pommel!
Thank you @clivers , you’re too kind! I think heading to your place has been in the talks as well! I really hope my saddle isn’t the issue, I love it and it’s only 2 years old !
It’s really nice to see I’m not the only one struggling. And many tips to help me out, I can’t wait to try them. Looks like tonight will be jump saddle night, and I’ll ride my greenie in it as well.
I’ve also texted my coach, she said a lot more 2 point work in the meantime. Will need to book another lesson. She’s really amazing and understanding 
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This is awesome. “Butt back” as my jump instructor says.
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Many here have given much better advice than I can, but I wanted to throw this out there: I recently ended up jumping without stirrups because of a wound on inside of my leg. Hadn’t done that in ages and MAN did it ever remind me that folding rather than standing up is what’s correct, effective, and natural, and bonus, when you jump without stirrups, yes, at the base of the fence your leg is ON. Quite magic for improving my riding without having to overthink anything at all or make anything complicated.
Regarding two point, I’m guilty of not doing enough in trot, but my coach’s stance is that you should be able to ride your entire dressage test in two point and your horse should go every bit as well that way. There’s a standard to aspire to! Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
I noticed that several competitors were eliminated in show jumping at the competition you were at – love to hear why if you have time.
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Last night I tinkered a bit with it all that was suggested. I realize I’m trying to keep my leg back, while trying to be lighter, I believe it needs to go a bit forward with the angle change.
I did the halt and chest to neck, I didn’t find it too hard, so I opted to try it in the walk, it started to get harder there. I can two point no problem, butt out of the saddle, its the in between the sitting and the point two, its that light seat. So I will continue to try and find this feeling. I don’t FEEL heavy, but I guess I look it?
I guess I’m not naturally talented, this sucks !
Two, no, three, no four, comments -
To the OP - the only time your leg position should change is when giving an aid behind the girth, and when riding defensively over a drop or on a horse that’s bucking and playing. Other than that, it should stay right underneath you, with your stirrup leather perpendicular to the ground. If you’re experimenting with you leg position, as a diagnostic only, tie your stirrup leathers to the girth with baling twine (something that will break). Riding this way will teach you when your leg moves from where it’s supposed to, and also, give you a new muscle memory of what it feels like when your leg stays ON while you’re in two-point.
Don’t do this often - it can quickly become a crutch. But it’s a wonderful way to learn that your leg isn’t doing what you think it is.
Second, the very best thing about the rider’s push up is that if you practice often enough, it becomes part of your muscle memory, and one day, while schooling you’ll experience the magical feeling of your hip going back and you staying over the middle of the horse in flight.without having to think to yourself “Stretch in your heel, eyes up, wait, hip back.”
Third, to the OP - based on your last comments, I think you have a misunderstanding of what two point and three point seat actually are. Your butt is NEVER supposed to be far out of the saddle (there’s a defensive galloping position that involves standing up in your stirrups, well off the saddle, and taking a bridge in the reins, but that’s for 1.) galloping racehorses and 2.) conditioning sets for advanced fitness.) In three point contact, or your “light seat” your crotch is touching the saddle but not weighting it. Two point is a fractional difference, your butt slightly out of the saddle. An old instructor of mine used to say that you should pretend a thumb tack was on the seat of your saddle and you wanted to feel the thumbtack but not sit down on it for two point. The difference between full seat and three point is closing your hip angle slightly, the difference between three point and two point is transferring your weight to your heels and lifting off the saddle MAYBE a half inch.
Most people exaggerate two point, and in exaggerating it, disrupt the balance.
Fourth, Blugal, that is such a lovely photo. Happy horse, happy rider, in balance. Cute, cute, cute jumper.
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@McGurk I fortunately do know what a true two point is. I worked at a race farm for 10 years while in high school and after high school, with the awesome chance to gallop and breeze race horses. I was actually worked with on my two point a month prior to being allowed to take a horse out on the track. Every day, it was in an exercise saddle, in the trot, forcing me out and up in the saddle. But that was also a couple of years ago, and since then I clearly have lost that muscle/memory/strength.
But that’s a true two point, but up and out of the saddle. Which I had a lesson last year with a coach who WANTED me to be doing that exact position on xc. Which I think is wrong and hilarious at training level. Lets be honest, no one really does THAT two point on cross anymore, or it’s extremely rare.
But you’re right, the three point is not there. I do like the idea of the binder twine to give me an idea of where it needs to be, because I clearly don’t know where my leg should be. Should the binder twine be tight? Or have a bit of give?
The thing is, I FEEL like my seat is light, and I don’t feel like I’m bashing on my horses back… So it’s hard to go lighter when I feel like I already am ‘light’. I’m no hunter, and never will be.
This was about 3 weeks ago, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LumTeZ8q5e4 our show jump round, Pooped the bed on fence 2, but other than that, here’s an idea of how I ride in show jump. Which is where our current issue is.
My horse and I have been together for 10 years, so there is baggage. LOTS of baggage between us. I got him at 4 years old, and we learned up the levels together. So I became a defensive rider because of our baggage, and tend to drive a lot as I fear for run outs because I’m tired of having them.
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The baler twine should have a little slack to it, otherwise it will make your knees and ankles ache. You also want it to be loose enough that you put your outside leg back to give an bending aid. What you do want is the baler twine to tell you if you take your leg off and forward in a downward transition, or if your leg moves back when you move into two or three point or if you leg moves in the air over a fence
My observations about your video is that your two point position looks a little locked; the your knee and ankle aren’t acting as shock absorbers so there’s extra movement in your hip above the horse. You should be able to feel the motion of the horse’s canter in your ankles and knees and allow them to open and close as the horse moves, that gives the impression that you’re still above the saddle. If you allow your ankle and knee to open and close the way they’re supposed to, your two point will be able to be a little closer to the tack and you’ll be able to find the three point.
In your three point, I can see exactly what your talking about - sometimes it’s true three point, but sometimes you are driving with your seat rather than quietly following. The ideal is to just touch the saddle in the last three strides so you can feel and control the distance, but sometimes you are pushing as well and your horse reacts. Watch the approach to your first fence and you can see it pretty clearly. Contrast it with the line closest to the camera, the combination - you stayed out of your tack and your horse was steadier.
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I doubt very much this has to do with lack of natural talent but yes, it sounds like you leg position is not correct. Typically, your toe should be in the middle girth. And your lower leg should not move. I just looked at some old videos of myself and while I’m unfit in many of them…my leg position rarely changes unless I happen to have slightly too long stirrups.
But it you need to easily be able to shift between seats…and do need a light seat even when in full seat on some horses…especially most TBs.
keep working on it and get someone to video you. It does get better. And there are many a 4* rider who should also work on this!!! It is something all good riders are often working on and refining as this can really take a horse up to the next level.
I don’t really see a light seat here even though your rear is well off the saddle with every canter stride. You never close your hip angle, almost riding defensively, never go with him and flow. To me, besides never really closing the hip and letting the horse fold you, you are opening the hip angle more and getting your shoulders back over the jump which brings you back into the tack too early. Throwing your leg ahead a little landing too, it’s flat, don’t need to sit back…that might have been why you got that prop off the ground.
Think it’s pretty easily fixable though. Riders push up to develop new muscle memory and that baling twine…about 4-6" I should think. Your leg is good but it would be better with less weight jammed into the heel and more distributed down your hamstrings and controlled by your core. You got little wiggle in your lower leg and your seat is too far out of the saddle just cantering as opposed to sinking into and around the horse.
I fixed this, you can too. But it is hard to reprogram yourself or find instruction sophisticated enough to really grasp it, that’s a shame too.
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Just saw the video and I agree with others. Your leg actually does look pretty good but you are locked somewhere.
Not it sure if this will help but here is an older video of me at a clinic. This horse was very green at the time. His first off the farm trip. He also got his tongue over the bit so it made riding him interesting.
But i picked out this video because I went to my full seat often in it sitting on a green horse…and you see him stop in it. But I’m not really heavy even when sending him. This is me unfit in my core too…you look stronger to me. I think it is really in the flexibility in all the joints.
Maybe think less…and allow more?
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@bornfreenowexpensive You have a lovely lower leg, I have envy.
My lower leg used to swing much worse than it does now, so there IS improvement, but not the improvement I want. Locked is the best term, I AM locked. I’m a very stiff rider, always have been, very sit straight up, locked in the shoulder and back, But clearly has effected everything.
@findeight the thing is I am told to sink into my heels, this is wrong? I used to ride in those flex stirrups that faked the leg on, my leg swung so much in that before. I’m bummed I’m even at this point in my riding that I Can’t be light in my seat. I’m not reactive quick enough to stop a stop from happening in this ‘lighter’ seat.
Yes. I do this too (I ride a horse with whom I sometimes get a stop) and, repeating myself, but I was amazed at how jumping without stirrups improved this instantly. You have to be with the horse and you have to fold over the jump, and of course unless you have legs of iron your butt is only a little out of the saddle.
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BFNE, nice. On point for the discussion too. Note you are not pushing all the weight into an overflexed ankle but evenly distributing it down the hamstrings. That combined with proper hip angle and shoulder control takes the wiggle out of the lower leg.
The whole point is a secure position that doesn’t get in the horses way. The drifty stop did not dislodge rider and let her correct the horse without drama. The rail and stumble did not create any issues ( Think horse was a little tired and distracted there). So there us a point in trying to master this, safety, control and a happier, more willing horse.
Im thinking OP is locked up in the hips…maybe thinking bend over at the waist instead of close hip angle? Flexibility too, especially in the hamstrings and lower back. That was the root of my difficulty with this. It got easier once I was aware.
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@bornfreenowexpensive, I am SO ENVIOUS of your lower leg!! I’ve really started to get after myself because I notice that my heel starts to “float” up even when I’m flatting instead of staying weighted down and by the girth.
LadyB, I have some additional suggestions for you. Let me know if you feel what I’ve said has been helpful so far, and I’ll try to organize my thoughts.
I was good at that…trying to jam the weight just into the heel, not all the way from hip to heel…shoulder might be driting forward allowing leg to shift back if you get that floaty heel…the weight can’t get there to secure it.
