If that is the case then I wouldn’t pass him by because of it.
I would have the owner handle all 4 feet for you ( w/o drugs) and if possible get there really early before hand , just to make sure he isn’t on the sedative before you get there ( it happens):yes:
If his feet can be handled normally I would think it is something you can work on. A new farrier might be just the thing he needs to make that possible.
and I would make sure his dislike of farrier isn’t due to soundness issues. horses that are difficult to shoe behind sometimes have pain in hock, stifle, SI.
In that case I wouldn’t have an issue buying after a rather lengthy vet check. Sometimes its a vet thing other times its the feeling of claustrophobia or not trusting the farrier.
I have one that needed to be Aced for a previous farrier. Finnegan get periodic hock injections. That farrier was tall. My next 3 farriers have been on the smaller side of average around 5’8" or so. I think the taller farrier 6’2" lifted the hind legs higher and it was uncomfortable for him.
What thread is that? The SDS say otherwise.
https://www.henryscheinvet.com/Content/SDS/038119.pdf
http://dhb3yazwboecu.cloudfront.net/1032/fichas/1191/Domosedan%20FDS.pdf
http://storage.pardot.com/135371/58073/Dormosedan_Gel_SDS.pdf
Its fairly well known and I was given a stern lecture by my vet at the time to always give using gloves and to be careful not to get it on your skin. If you get enough on your skin and absorb it, it can cause you to pass out and stop your heart.
If you have to use it, its better to know the risk and prepare accordingly and use extra caution. Its no different than accidently jabbing yourself with a needle filled with Ace.
My mare only fights the nailing process. Hot shoeing—no problem. Just the nailing portion. It is like each strike of the hammer goes straight to her brain. I spent hours using a small hammer on her feet and she would tolerate that but I wasn’t driving nails. I decided to try barefoot or I would have had to try sedation. She has no problems with trimming whatsoever. That was 10 years ago. She is still BF. I do use hoof boots at my current barn during the dry season because we have a rock migration issue in the footing. That has worked well and I had no issues showing her BF as most show arenas are much better quality footing than the home barn.
IF she needed shoes, she would get them. I would either go with glue ons or I would sedate her. She might be fine about it now??? It would be worth a try before we jumped to sedation. Yep, I would (and did) buy one. I just didn’t know it at the time (she was a long yearling when I bought her). There are alternatives (boots or glue ons) and if sedation was needed I would coordinate with vet and farrier.
Susan
Well, in theory you could absorb it through your skin. But since it’s designed to be absorbed through mucous membranes I don’t imagine it could be absorbed very easily through the skin on your hands, for example.
I would be more concerned about getting it in your face when dosing a horse than getting it on your hands. If your horse coughs it back into your face you might have to worry.
Totally not a problem for me. I keep the stuff on hand. Sometimes I need to use it with a youngster learning to work with the farrier to be trimmed. Use glove, put under tongue. Pretty darn simple. Never had a horse cough up a sublingual administration.
As others have said, work with the horse to go without, That’s what I do with my youngsters.
Like I said, the SDS state there is no significant hazard. The active ingredient is quite toxic through oral and inhalation routes, but as it is used at less than 1% in the mixture, the product itself poses little risk of death. From the Henry Schein/Zoetis SDS - “May be absorbed through mucous membranes and cause systemic effects.” The fact that they have this statement, but the product is stated as “Not classified” in the section above, means you would have to get a significant amount of it absorbed into your bloodstream for it to cause serious effects. The Pfizer SDS has it listed as present in their product at 55%, which I question because both other suppliers state <1%. Also, the Pfizer SDS is from 1994 and is not updated to the current required regulatory format. I finally found a 2010 SDS from Pfizer that has the active listed at <1%.
https://www.zoetisus.com/_locale-ass…dormosedan.pdf
That is the injection. Here is the gel, also at <1%
https://www.zoetisus.com/contact/pag…osedan_gel.pdf
From Zoetis website:
“DORMOSEDAN GEL can be absorbed into the body after direct exposure through the eyes or mouth, and may cause irritation to these areas.”
I have not researched any toxicological studies, however it appears that Dormosedan does not actually absorb through your skin, as others stated, it absorbs through mucous membranes. You wear gloves to prevent skin contact, which you can then transfer to your eyes or mouth by touching them.
One should always wear gloves and exercise caution when handling pharmaceuticals and even topical O-T-C treatments. Exercise caution, yes, but don’t scare people with unnecessary exaggerated statements like “dormosedan oral is very dangerous to humans if it gets on your skin. Can kill you!”
If the horse doesn’t like when the farrier holds the foot between his legs, I wonder if you could start with a hoof jack with a sling for a bit. Part of the potential weirdness (to the horse) is not just that the leg is held. But with front legs, depending on how wide the horse’s chest is, the leg is pulled wide as the foot is pulled between the farrier’s legs. Otherwise, the farrier would be standing under the belly. I think if he is fine for picking and nailing, he’d probably do ok using a hoof jack.
You might also want to do some research on Masteron Method leg release techniques. Very gentle, but does ask the horse to relax the limb in a spot where you place it, which may be wide or forward or back and not where the horse wants it to be if they are guarded or tense. It’s hard to explain, but there are videos on YouTube. That’s all about relaxation, not handling, but I think it would help translate and help rewrire the current panic response.
Yep. My dingus gets Aced for shoes because he shits everywhere (complete liquid, shoots like four feet) and rears.
Yes go on and look at him. My AO hunter had to be sedated for a long time to have his back feet trimmed (we didn’t shoe him behind because he was so bad for the farrier, even on Dorm). He’s a great horse despite that! My new farrier keeps Dorm gel on hand if he needs it and I would trust him to give it. I always sedated my horse IV because giving him anything in the mouth was a fight too.
My new farrier, who I have been using for a couple of years now, is so good with the horses, he’s actually gotten my old guy to tolerate hind feet trimming without sedation. He is VERY patient. You never know, he may not really need the Dorm if he gets worked with properly.
And my AO hunter was horrible for the farrier from the very first time he was ever shod (his former owner told me). He kicked that farrier so hard in the chest, he was sent to the hospital.
One of my horses is a misogynist, will stand like an angel for blokes and is naughty (snatching, hopping and rearing) for females, which is really odd, as I have owned him since he was a baby, and he certainly hasnt gotten away with much from a female handler.
What I will say though is he went through a stage with a sore back and was (understandably) upset to lift his hind legs.
I, like others have pointed out, would be concerned about underlying soundness issues.
I mean most things can be undone with patience and handling, so it seems needing drugged up for something as commonly attended too as his feet, is a bit suss.
Thanks all! Found out that he wasn’t as advertised, so passed anyway!
If everything else is perfect, I would also buy. I got my mare directly from the track and she was just a BASKET CASE for farriers. My vet suggested dorm, but I ended up just changing farriers to somebody who is incredibly patient and that did the trick.
As long as the farrier is willing to work on the horse still, I don’t see why it would be a problem at all.
Sure, it’s not a huge deal. I’m sorry he wasn’t as advertised!!
My horse just simply dislikes the process of shoeing, especially the nailing. For any farrier. He looks fine to me as I’m holding but he will yank and pull on legs my farrier is holding. Half the time I don’t see it. This horse has never had a bad experience being shod, and has had total patience. I have had him for years now, he has simply never liked shoeing, even when I give him his favorite treat to chew for every shoe. I had a professional trainer hold him twice this fall who said he was a pill, and when I held him, he was more of a pill than usual.
After…4 years?? my farrier suggested Dormosedan and my vet said it was probably a good idea. I’ve used it three times and am finding the minimal dose (about 2/3-the dose?). I’ve had no problems, my horse has no problems, my farrier now likes working on my horse.
It’s not a strong sedative at all. I would not be put off that a horse does better being shod with it. Hey, if it makes the horse and farrier comfortable, I see no problem. My vet was very supportive.
Oh, my horse has no problem having his feet picked up by me or his hooves cleaned, or bell boots applied (he lives in fronts), I and even lead him by putting a rope around his front fetlock. He has no issue with his feet, joints or back. He’s also not in pain, he gets a thorough physical twice yearly by the vet.
Not true!!
I don’t know. Most of the horses I know that need to be drugged to have their feet done either have a serious disease/neurological issue that makes it difficult (cervical arthritis, EPM, shivers…) or they have an injury somewhere that makes it painful to stand long periods of time with a leg hiked up. For a few “good citizen” horses in my care as a barn worker, one of the first signs of physical onset of disease and/or injury was a sudden difficulty with shoeing.
For that I would be very wary as there really should be no reason a perfectly sound horse had to be tranq’d for a farrier. (This is different than an unsound horse needing tranqs, which I have seen and even administered myself).
Which only leaves the excuse of poor handling or training.
My own gelding had a really bad experience, twice, with the same farrier. He’s the type to never let a grudge go either… Even then he never had to be tranq’d or sedated and he is pretty sensitive as far as horses go. I would put him on the “almost reactive” stage. It took him a few visits with the farrier to get over it. He is still suspicious of one hind being shod, but that’s because it was the hind that was being held both times when he had his bad experience.
Many farriers will not work under a sedated or tranq’d horse.
So I’d have a healthy dose of suspicion that the dosing is because of a physical ailment, somewhere.
No wouldn’t own a horse requiring tranquilizers for being trimmed/shod. My trimmer won’t work on a tranqed horse. Op glad you passed on said horse.
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