WTF Are We Doing?

[Jealoushe]

@starsandsun

Beowulf, having been in insurance, what is your perspective on whether insurance companies will change the game by changing who gets insured against what risk? I also heard that courses, course designers, etc. might find themselves uninsurable against claims of loss. I don’t know enough to know whether that is possible or likely.

I work in insurance currently, equestrian events are not hard to insure and they are actually relatively low risk. My mini event hosting insurance was a whopping $150 every year lol You have to prove negligence to win a lawsuit and it would be pretty hard to show that because of how many factors are involved in eventing, plus the fact that equestrian sport especially eventing comes with inherit risk.

Also the reason there are potentially more TB claims is because of the racing industry. Way more horses insured are TBs than others because of this. Results are skewed, doesn’t mean TBs are less sound lol

[Rel6]

The policy is refusing to insure thoroughbreds as eventers. I will likely chat with my agent soon and am also curious to learn more.

It makes sense to me that an OTTB would have more claims than other horses in general because as you said, they are on a second career and generally have more miles on them than their peers (which is a huge benefit in many ways, but a detriment in others). Its like saying a 10 year old may have more claims than a 5 year old. I personally would also say that racehorse breeding contributes to unsoundness in addition to racing, as they are being more purpose bred to excel at something for a more limited time span. But a large company isn’t going to parse the details into a more nuanced policy (excluding OTTBs who had over X amount of starts, as opposed to all TBs). But when you have so few sport-horse bred TBs and the majority are coming off the track, it probably is just easier to exclude a whole breed if minimizing risk is the only concern.

I don’t agree with the decision and I’d be curious to see the data its based on. It further stigmatizes a whole breed as prone to lameness/soundness issues. It also makes me wonder what happens if someone registers their TB with a different registry (like American Warmblood). Can it then be insured? And I could see it then de-incentivizing breeders from breeding a purpose bred TB sporthorse for eventing, because people won’t want to pay $$$ for something that can’t be insured. I believe it was only one company’s policy though, and I hope it stays that way.

[173north]

Two horses and a rider died at Burghley 1988? Wow. That is a useful data point in the eternal “things were safer back in the day” conversation.

[Sticky_Situation]

Exactly. It annoys me a bit when … certain riders from “back in the day” natter on about how eventing has become dangerous and how terrible it is that nobody has “fixed” it yet and getting all holier-than-thou toward today’s event riders … without acknowledging that eventing has always been dangerous for both horses and riders, even “back in the day” and what has changed the most is our tolerance for that level of risk and the consequences that come with it.

It’s certainly fair for somebody’s opinion to evolve over time and for them to say they’re no longer accepting of that degree of risk for themself or their horses and that they want to see the sport made safer, but it’s tacky to repeatedly accuse modern event riders of treating their horses as disposable when you participated in an equally dangerous form of the sport at the upper levels yourself for many years.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Re: the back in the day comparison (which I agree isn’t very helpful, let’s make things safer moving forward), someone on the board a while back shared a clip from 1991 in Fair Hill (the cross-country starts around 17:00). But just sharing for those with interest/comparison.

1991 Fair Hill International Three Day Event

[Willesdon]

Well that delayed the dog’s walk this morning!

Dressage wobbly, xc with no frangibles, ground lines not always obvious, tables totally flat, bounces, no “un-jumpables” to guide the riders through fences, no blingy fence dressing, terrain less manicured, no stringing apparent xc, show jumping on a roller-coaster grass field, a very large loose dog assisting rider to remount, remounting after a fall, lots of rider elbow action, no specialist saddles, no safety vests, lots of whip abuse!! (FEI now two strikes only) and very few time penalties. I thought it looked to be a good course and it would be interesting to see a couple of those fences used today.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Probably my least intelligent comment, but that pink foliage was gorgeous!

There was that one Canadian eventer on the mare galloping around on an epically long rein and making it all work!

Some falls and refusals were quite dramatic, though I will say many of the riders had great feel for each horse’s way of going.

The cross-country starts around 17:30, for those interested.

[gardenie]

And how about Molokai? What athleticism! Wish they showed more of him.

[make_the_time]

@quietann I think we don’t understand the incident, or at least that understanding, if it is present, is not widely shared. Einstein famously noted - God does not play dice with the Universe; the only things which are random are things we don’t yet understand.

[gardenie]

(43) 1982 KY 3 Day Event from KET TV program narrated by Nigel Casserley and Denny Emerson - YouTube Why decorating fences is a good thing, that first fence was hard to read! And sorry, despite Denny waxing poetic about the good old days, that was not a kinder course than what we do today.

[Marigold]

@Sticky_Situation

Exactly. It annoys me a bit when … certain riders from “back in the day” natter on about how eventing has become dangerous and how terrible it is that nobody has “fixed” it yet and getting all holier-than-thou toward today’s event riders … without acknowledging that eventing has always been dangerous for both horses and riders, even “back in the day” and what has changed the most is our tolerance for that level of risk and the consequences that come with it.

It’s certainly fair for somebody’s opinion to evolve over time and for them to say they’re no longer accepting of that degree of risk for themself or their horses and that they want to see the sport made safer, but it’s tacky to repeatedly accuse modern event riders of treating their horses as disposable when you participated in an equally dangerous form of the sport at the upper levels yourself for many years.

This is an excellent post. I wanted to bold the best parts, but it would have been the whole thing. You are absolutely correct. Thank you.

[Jealoushe]

I actually haven’t heard anyone say the good ol days in Eventing in a long time. Thankfully I think that sentiment is dying off.

[Doodlebug1]

Maybe not in this thread, but in the Badminton, Bramham, Kentucky threads - oh, it’s alive and well (in the context of safety). Shall we place bets on Burghley mentions of ‘the good old days’? (I have nothing against eventing in the ‘old days’ but people’s ‘old days’ are inevitably only as old as they are. How many people remember the Phase E AKA the ‘run-in’?)

[mugsgame]

Her brother is a well known racing trainer and has been getting pelvis injuries on his gallops. He moved to a new training base with new gallops not that long ago. Rosie uses his gallops…

[Blugal]

Ricker Ridge Ricochet died on XC in the Blenheim CCI3*-S for 8/9 year olds yesterday: https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/blenheim-horse-trials-samantha-lissington-update-ricker-ridge-ricochet-803512?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow

[FLeventer]

I thought Jane Sleepers ride on the grey and Phyllis Dawson in her bay were quite good rides through. Fairly smooth, except a hung leg at the water. Its crazy to see the changes in footing, equipment, jump building. So many bounces, but though the fences were solid with no pins or clips, they were not as imposing as some of the massive tables or wedges we see now so often. Yes, were there jumps and combos that I was a bit concerned about, of course. Were there also fences out there that I was like that looks like fun? Yes.

Just a lot of gritty riding. It wasn’t safer back then, people still got hurt. Horses still got hurt. There were combinations that were hard to read and punished the horse. Some of the riding was well hairy, especially when the rider/horse lost momentum. Also everyone talks about how courses are trappy sometimes now, but there were a lot of trappy fences then too. It’s just so different now. Different horses, riding styles, courses.

I do miss some of the more natural jumps though. I don’t particularly like the solar panels and egg boxes on big courses. There is something that can be said for nice logs and ramps that look like a natural cross country course. Also like how wild it looks, less groomed, less golf course. Maybe I’m just a bit nostalgic about classic courses I watched and rode when younger.

[Willesdon]

@FLeventer

…
I do miss some of the more natural jumps though. I don’t particularly like the solar panels and egg boxes on big courses. There is something that can be said for nice logs and ramps that look like a natural cross country course. Also like how wild it looks, less groomed, less golf course. Maybe I’m just a bit nostalgic about classic courses I watched and rode when younger.

Friends and I were discussing styles of fences recently. There does seem to be different national styles as well as fashions for particular fences. The French in particular produce the most amazing artistic concoctions that look like crabs or violins and have little to do with a real hedge, ditch or rail. There is a UK tendency towards less decoration and more natural look, partly to save cost, but if an egg production company sponsors a fence it is going to be an egg box. The USA seems to have the most manicured tracks, other nations are far more rough and ready. Moveable fences are far cheaper but it does mean drops, ditches, hairy Bulfinch hedges are scarce. The most extreme fence I’ve seen recently was old images of an Event in Australia that had horses actually jumping off a building, running up one side of the roof like a ramp, down the slope on the other side then jumping down the drop when the roof ended. Travel expands one’s mind.

[FLeventer]

That’s a nice imput, could have done without the last sentence. I travel quite a bit outside of the country for work and agree that travel does expand the mind.

I’ve watched courses in the UK, Germany, France. I’ve seen the jumps. I understand how sponsored fences work. There is a change towards fancy, beautifully built fences. No one can deny that. Am I against them? Not particularly, but I do miss some more natural fences. Seeing some at Pratoni was a nice change up. It isn’t as if the fences have all become these art pieces, nor was I saying that. It just was a nice change to see more natural fences. Just a change in the sport over the years.

[Jealoushe]

Another horse died too, have to look up who it was. I think it was Georgie Spences.

[Blugal]

Georgie Spence’s ride Fanta Boy died Saturday night after completing a steady clear XC at Blenheim 4*-L:

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/tributes-paid-fanta-boy-803760