I agree with all of this. I might question whether more horses are dying, but if they are, it’s probably unrelated to competition (aside from the stress and strain of showing them as much as H/Js do these days).
That said, I don’t care how boring the data is. Release it!
This isn’t really an excuse as to why they shouldn’t, but I’d just imagine that even though they have the data it’s not been gone through or even organized into one format. The forms… so many forms. None of them probably put into any sort of useful order. They would have to hire someone to organize and quantify the data so it would be even somewhat useful. They probably don’t even have anything they could release unless you wanted to go there and sort through a file cabinet/email server/etc of forms.
Working in government/business has taught me that if something can be left in a filing cabinet or email server and not organized, it WILL be left there. (Once came across a whole filing cabinet of social security numbers. Was not locked and was in an easily public accessible area. They just forgot about them.)
As a former government worker, I hear you. So much bureaucratic nonsense. But we still need to demand better.
Just this spring at Badminton riders complained about the coronation fence (I think that was the name of it) because of how it looked on the approach; quite a few spoke up about it. Nothing changed. That’s the fence the horse died after it put its foot in the ditch on approach. There was also a fence in the middle of the water, near the end of the course, which is a circumstance known to be more dangerous. So people can do studies all they want, and track data, and talk about self policing, but when the course designer ignores the data and the riders go out on a course with a jump they don’t like, I’m not sure what good all the data and talk will do. And I don’t believe people in world-class competitive sports are capable of self policing.
I really think it’s going to have to come down to outside policing of course designers. And then people will complain that the course is too soft, cross country should be more ‘influential,’ and blame PETA for everything. Literally, with people, you can’t win.
With all due respect, your reply directed at me is unfair. I did no such thing. Her egregious, unsubstantiated comments were directed at my discipline, and I resent you implying that I was in any way going overboard, bullying, or similar in calling them out. Furthermore, to imply that others are not passionate about our horses’ welfare or merely “claim to love” them is really beyond the pale.
If you want people to behave in a respectful manner, then perhaps model that behavior.
Oh I agree. I just doubt USEF will hire someone to deal with it until the user base yells loud enough for it. And I’m not sure the h/j crowd is aware of it, much less aware enough to want hard data.
The course at Badminton 2023 was modified because of the wet conditions before the competition began. The length was shortened even as the time remained the same. A fence and a section of the parkland was completely removed as a result of discussion between the Ground Jury, the Course Designer, the Course Builder, the Riders’ Representative, the Health &Safety
Consultant, the Event Organiser - and even with that many people the decision was quickly made for the benefit of horse welfare. Even then, many riders decided not to run their horse in the interests of their horse welfare. Yet others retired when they felt their horses were not managing. The winner had a superlative performance because her horsemanship is top notch.
Earlier in the week the Grassroots Championship ran at 90cm and 100cm, with no issues, over perfectly prepared ground with challenging but fair fences. A lovely atmosphere as all the runners finished with massive smiles and often a lifelong ambition fulfilled. This was before the torrential rain on the Saturday.
Watching an Event on live stream is not the same as being there. Cameras do not show the ups and downs of the terrain and distances are foreshortened and distorted by zoom lenses. Ground conditions cannot be seen but rather are felt underfoot.
ETA The combination at the Lake was criticized by Lucinda Green who then did another video where Eric Winter explained what and how about the jump into the water - open discussion with learning. Fox-Pitt loudly complained that the fence into the water was unfair but he failed to mention the black flag alternative right beside the jump he disliked. Some riders jumped either fence: some riders succeeded or failed at either fence.
You asked a question, I responded to your question and then followed on with a general “you”. That’s how the response button works? I’m not sure where you are taking a personal attack from.
Your response was not at all clear that you were addressing a general you, typically one would type you( g). If it wasn’t your intention to lump me in, then I apologize for taking it personally.
I maintain, however, that it isn’t appropriate to imply others aren’t concerned for safety or don’t love their animals.
I thought that Badminton did a great job of addressing the uncooperative weather and listening to rider concerns. Sometimes some rider concerns are legitimate, some are just fruitbat and/or entitled. In the vein of rider accountability, some riders need to rein in their entitlement when it comes to demand[s] they make of venues and their staff.
While a huge component of keeping eventing safe is Rider Accountability, it also needs to boil down to Venue Accountability and Course Designer Accountability. Eric Winters is not a CD I associate with dangerous fences, and he will listen to feedback. There are some CDs that don’t – anyone remember CMP blaming rider falls and horse deaths on his courses to riders being unprepared?
IIRC, that fence that WFP complained about was a frangible in light of a horse falling at it the year before (if memory serves).
So true. See Modern Pentathlon as a prime example.
This is a beautiful post, that candidly and honestly encapsulates what it is to know and love horses. The highest highs, and the lowest lows, and sometimes even trying with every fiber of your being is not enough to insulate you and your horse from tragedy. But I do believe it is worth it even so.
There are some kind of ridiculous claims on here…coming from good intentions, I think, but still pretty uneducated. No one wants to be on a horse going cross country that can’t read a question and say, “no, I don’t understand this, I’m not risking us”. To say that all upper level eventers are conditioned to never say no is wildly misunderstanding the sport. Maybe once upon a time this was how it was, but not today. Event horses are taught how to answer questions, not blindly leap over and through what is in front of them. If they are shown to not be able to read the questions, they are removed from eventing or backed down to reinforce the concepts. Likely some accidents occur from those that don’t recognize their horse can’t read the questions, but that doesn’t mean that is what eventers want.
And while I don’t always agree with Jealoushe and the things she posts or the way she posts it, I really think that was all blown way out of proportion. I got the impression she has been told things from people in that world, which may or may not be true, but there also is literally no way to prove it. I can also say that I know reiners that have died from ulcers due to stress from never being turned out because of having sliders, or from finally being turned out and breaking legs because they weren’t USED to being turned out. I know barrel racers that have gotten seriously injured during races and either retired or euthanized. I know hunters that couldn’t handle the stress of frequent long shows with no turnout and became so aggressive they needed to be completely restarted. I know eventers that were run cross country but never learned to relax enough for dressage and are neurotic messes. I know horses in just about every discipline that have been majorly messed up, mentally or physically, for one reason or another. I can’t prove ANY of this because it’s my own experiences. And yet, it’s true. That doesn’t mean you have to accept it as fact, but being rude about me not being able to prove it also isn’t cool. You can say, “I can’t believe you without hard evidence”, and that’s totally valid. But the rest has gotten a biiiit excessive. And I’m saying this, again, as someone that has disagreed with lots of things she has said before.
Adding, I’m not condemning any of the disciplines for those experiences either. Just pointing out that I can state things that are true to me, but that I can’t prove to you (g) otherwise. Whether they are actually true or not.
To whoever is collecting data: there was a fatality at saratoga this past week.
[quote=“K_VanOlst, post:2543, topic:386102”]the plural of anecdote is not data.”
[/quote]
Oh, I looofff it
At HITS?
At the Summer Celebration - a truly wonderful human being who was a top, top tier horseman.
How awful.
I was surprised not to see more about this generally, given how widespread the news of the fatality in FL earlier this year spread.
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