It seems you are really interested in contributing to a safety discussion! Here’s a link to all the USEA’s safety resources. I’m sure there is a need for more volunteers and research dollars.
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Respectfully, in this case your mind is wrong. Do you have much experience with young event horses (particularly those that go on to be suitable for the upper levels)? I have known quite a few over the years, and while not all of them were ready for Training at 5, some certainly were. Though regardless, that discussion is no longer relevant to this issue and should now be moved to the spinoff thread set up by @EventerAJ.
Lots of OTTBs are not registered under their Jockey Club name. It is not nefarious - rather, it is done because many Jockey Club names are unusual or do not have significant meaning, and the rider would like to assign a name that does before the horse has a competition record. This is supported in this case by the horse continuing to be registered with the name of its sire and dam (in the unlikely event of someone attempting to conceal a horse’s identity, they would not include breeding information). The year of birth being wrong is less common, but I cannot possibly see how there might be a “motivation” behind it beyond human error (given that the horse clearly hasn’t been competing in age classes or anything else a younger age might make him eligible for).
Endless, I recognize that human nature is to assign blame for an accident so that you can assure yourself it will not happen to you, but you are going about that in an incorrect and very hurtful way in this instance. There is no evidence at this time to suggest this rider made a mistake or a poor judgement of any kind (beyond potentially a clerical one), and certainly nothing to suggest she did anything nefarious. Please consider offering your condolences to a rider in a situation none of us would wish for in a thousand years, and waiting to offer opinions until any actual facts are known.
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Additional question - if riders were saying the question was unfair/unclear/whatever during the course walk, why did they not scratch when their concerns were not heard? Why send the horse anyways?
This is a ridiculous take on the situation.
Training in general should not be unforgiving but course designers and those who set the courses up are human, they make mistakes. Riders are human, even the best of us make mistakes.
Horses aren’t human but god knows some of them make enough mistakes for twelve people and those prone to trying to kill themselves should not be running Training, if being ridden at all.
You spent the first full day railing about how 5 year old shouldn’t be running at that level and how inexperienced both horse and rider were due to a snap shot of their recognized record. Now that you know the horse is 7 and the rider a pro with a decent amount of experience, you’re still arguing this pair was over faced. You have no basis for that opinion and ACCIDENTS HAPPEN!
We don’t know what caused the actual incident - horse could have literally had a heart attack right at that moment or had a shoe pop or any number of things that don’t involve blaming the rider for over facing and killing her horse, which is what you are doing.
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Guys, we don’t know what happened other than that the horse fell. Which is awful and always hits close to home.
I respect having a risk tolerance that dictates that if a horse dies eventing for any reason (slipped/tripped, cardiac event, external disruption, rider medical emergency) that eventing is too dangerous or needs some sort of (TBD) restriction. Lots of people don’t event (or don’t jump, or hunt, or race, or whatever) due to risk.
But the bottom line is that we do not yet know what happened in this case, and speculation about the riders’ skill/preparation/motivations/intent and the horse’s talent based on the outcome is just completely uninformed right now.
Perhaps as we learn more, this may turn into a conversation about appropriate questions for training level, or something. Now we are just using a person we don’t know to vent our fears and anxieties.
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Holy crap. All of this insisting the horse wasn’t ready for Training because of recognized show results. The vast majority of show experience for most is at unrecognized, and you probably will be hard pressed to find records of all of those. I’m sorry, but assuming this horse was not ready for Training purely because of his age and your assumptions of his ability based on only a handful of recognized shows is extremely ignorant. I have a friend getting ready to move up to Training. She’s done only a couple Novices at recognized shows, but many more unrecognized and TONS of schooling. Her horse was ready to move up like yesterday. You just can’t form an educated opinion on such little information.
And we all know horses are individuals. One horse’s 5 is another horse’s 10. I’ve known 4 year olds that made steadier lesson horses than 18 year olds, and I’ve know mid-teens horses that just can’t grow up. Saying you have concerns is one thing. Claiming this horse wasn’t ready for, frankly, inaccurate reasons is a whole other thing, and not really appropriate IMO right now.
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I’ll wait for a detailed analysis of the accident from USEA. Or USEF.
Oh wait, that never happens.
We are always left in the complete dark, they give their “thoughts and prayers” and the next event rolls on like it never happened.
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Of all the cruel/uninformed things you’ve said in this discussion, this might be the worst. The poor rider is surely second-guessing every decision, up to entering this particular event/loading her horse on the trailer that morning. Strangers on the Internet voicing all those “what-ifs” helps no one.
None of us are a perfect human or perfect animal owner. The next time harm comes to one of the animals in your care - and it will, inevitably - I hope those around you show you more empathy than you’ve shown this rider.
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Knowing what the consequences could be, and knowing that it has happened before and will happen again - I can’t believe someone would put a show result over the life of their animal.
So that’s why I asked the question.
Did anyone bring this up to the authorities at the show, or was it just mumbling amongst the riders with no attempt at action? Was there actually any mumbling at all, or did someone say after the fact “I didn’t really like the look of that fence” without saying anything before hand?
That’s not an unfair question. An animal is dead. If this were someone galloping their horse down the highway we’d all have the pitchforks out at the ready. But because it’s a sport that’s sometimes super fun and sometimes ends in tragedy, we can’t ask the hard questions?
I don’t think anyone has an issue with asking the hard questions. I think you arguing for the sake of arguing is the issue. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and you have stated your opinion more than once in this thread. We get it. I have a question for you, and please forgive my ignorance if you have answered this question previously: what is your background that you can come on here and opine and pontificate on eventing, and 5 year olds at TL and pros vs. ammies in eventing, etc.? Are you a pro? Do you event? Have you trained a 5 year old to go cross country at a registered event?
Again, you are a horseperson, you are entitled to your opinion and you are entitled to share your opinion on the board like everyone else, But to sit there and argue ad nauseum a point that people who are very experienced disagree with seems odd to me. (my opinion only). I have never evented. (with the exception of a 1 day schooling event 36 years ago). I would not presume to tell these other folks what they are doing wrong. Why are you?
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It’s really hard to talk about how to make a sport safer with someone who wants to end the sport. It’s an extreme view which has no middle ground.
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I don’t want to end it. I want horses and riders to not die when it could have been prevented. And I don’t care what it takes to make that happen. If that means all the xc jumps collapse, so be it. If that means less height, width, speed, so be it.
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Do you currently or have you ever evented?
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This won’t be a popular opinion, but most horses can go Training successfully. Training should most certainly be respected, but it’s not an extraordinary ask.
These are horses. There are risks. There is opportunity to reduce the risk, but you will never eliminate it. You could eliminate equestrian sports altogether and there were still be horses dying unfairly of broken legs out in wide open spaces.
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Are necropsies mandatory at Training level? I’m wondering if there was an underlying issue that might have present.
I believe they are now mandatory at any USEF recognized competition.
The answer is yes, but not at any high level.
But if we’re going to make that the prerequisite for speaking on any horse matters, that you have to have actually done it to have an opinion… what about big lick, racing, drug abuse in hunters, Kocher’s electric spurs…
That is not a valid prerequisite.
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Agree. But your firm commitment to “no 5 year olds at Training Level” does smack of someone without much experience. It sounds like railbird snark. Your opinion is just that, but it doesn’t necessarily make you right. Yet you expound on it as though you are speaking from vast experience, which clearly you don’t have. Maybe you are incapable of backing down. Maybe you are incapable of learning from people who know more than you, IDK.
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Paralelling those things is a big reach. Soring, doping and shocking aren’t synonomous to eventing.
We make every effort to prepare ourselves and our horses to be successful. We run ourselves thin to make sure our horses don’t want for anything and have the best care and best medicines available to them. We keep ourselves up at night watching and replaying our rounds, criticizing everything we do because we want to be the best for our horses. We blame ourselves as riders, always. We seek help from the best. I get it, it’s a sport that carries risk. Horses are inherently high risk. Don’t tell us we’re bad people or bad to our animals because this is the sport we chose. Don’t tell us we don’t care.
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I don’t think you judging the rider, the show, or those who decided to compete is helpful here. From what I have observed, you do this whenever a horse dies on cross country. If you truly believe that we should remove everything that could potentially cause a horse harm, then we’d have to start taking away turnout, or stalls, or crossties, or some veterinary procedures…
Arguing to make XC safer is one thing, but judging the rider and the entirety of the sport is totally different. If you feel so strongly, perhaps you should write to the USEA.
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