This was the article. A heart murmur was detected.
http://eventingnation.com/vets-detect-heart-murmur-at-ocala-horse-retired-in-happy-ending/
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8184748]
Once again, I think it all comes down to WHAT YOU WANT THE SPORT TO TEST.
Obviously, itâs evolved greatly since the military days; the type of horse, the type of rider, the degree of risk riders, owners, and organizers are willing to assume.
In that context, then, WHAT IS THE QUESTION?
Endurance?
Cattiness?
Scope?
Ridability?
Fitness?
Versatility?
Emphasis on rider skill?
Emphasis on quality of horse?
Nowhere do I see âOptical Illusionsâ or âWillingness to Attempt the Insaneâ as high priorities in that list above. The days when the war horse must be willing to unhesitatingly fling himself off a drawbridge for a rider on a suicide mission are OVER. If we take as true the opinion above, that UL riders, no less than the lower levels, would prefer at all cost to finish in one piece, able to go again another day, then WHY do we need the enormous âbroken bridgeâ type jumps, the hanging logs over ditches, the ramped tables, the keyholes, the wagon jumps and other circus stunts? Canât we punish a âmistakeâ with just penalty points instead of grisly and too frequently fatal crashes?
I completely dismiss the âTVâ argument; there has never been enough money in Eventing to attract a substantial TV audience, and there never will be. The sport is too elite and arcane for Joe Nascar to want to watch. Plus, thereâs the twitchiness of âanimal rightsâ groups who leap to attack anything they see.
So letâs decide what it is we want to test, and get rid of any âquestionâ that does not further THAT mission. But there has to be a frank and open discussion of where the sport realistically is today, as opposed to its historical context.
Been awhile since we fenced with live blades in the Olympics. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
agreed.
When it comes to cross country Iâd start with endurance and the ability to cover ground while dealing with more natural fences. Just to plant a seed :sadsmile:
AH, so this statement from you is a kind statement?
JP60, when you make statements about how people âfeelâ and note that their âegos are compromised if the sport is not extreme,â I read that as not only an insult, but as an assault on character, about which you know nothing.
This is not an ego-less sport and I only made a comment about what I notice. I assault no character of individuals. At least no more no less than what Iâve read in this forum in the past.
Perhaps you were referring to me as being derisive or scornful
I was not. I was referring to the number of times in the past I read rather intense commentary back and forth, some at me, some at others and was somewhat surprised at the veracity of the return. Until now, nothing I mentioned was directed at you.
Why should I have any reason to be angry?
I donât know, but when you use my moniker next to a statement of saying I am insulting people and assaulting their character, those tend to be words of anger, not understanding.
I do not know how you define âstepping back from the line.â That is vague and not descriptive. Actually, âloveâ is pretty darned vague as well, but that is another chapter, thread, or poem, all together. :winkgrin:
nuff saidâŠ
Throughout these discussions Iâve presented at times specific ways to step back from the line.
Longer courses
less technical fences
lose the watch
(in short). Stepping back from the line first takes the effort to say "what can we do different that keeps the spirit of this sport without putting more risk to our horses. So far the main commentary has been along the lines of not having enough studies. What Iâd like to see are reasoned responses to such ideas as what do we want this sport to test, why not lengthen courses, reduce technical fences, reduce the speed differentials, drop the watch on course. What are your thoughts on those specific items.
As to love being vagueâŠCan you define it? I listened to a song once with many people answering that very question, not one was the same. What I will start with is this, Love is the opposite of Fear.
So, why has there been no real change in this sport other than to protect the rider more on course even as we continue to have rotational falls, serious injuries and death of horses. frangible pins do not count for that was mainly to protect the rider, not the horse.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8184240]
I hope that every time there is a sudden cardiac event, DNA is preserved. Seems to me that sooner or later enough will have been saved that gene sequencing can be done to look for genetic links.[/QUOTE]
Iâm very glad to see this conversation come up. Genetics/genomics is such a rapidly evolving field, even many of the practitioners have a hard time keeping up (some are co-workers, I donât do microscopes, LOL, but it doesnât mean I donât think about it, itâs integral to my field & research).
I began pondering about a year ago, shortly after reading an article reporting genetic markers for some types of laminitis, if there was not a high probability that there were also similar sequences linked to at least some of these cardiac events. If I didnât have such a long âresearch project wishlistâ at work, Iâd love to dig into it more, sigh.
I know Iâm paranoid (although in the large biological picture, mostly likely irrationally so) because my OTTBâs sire, Crowd Pleaser, an AP Indy son & an multiple turf-stakes winning champion, died in his pasture at age 11 of âacute cardiovascular collapse,â which is pretty dang vague. Encore is 10 â & thanks, viney, he has lots of Nasrullah further back, I shouldnât have read that! I canât help it. I own horses, they exist to simultaneously fill & break your heart. 
But we can do a LOT with a fin clip from a 50 mm shiner, so itâs not like you need much. It does have to go in 190-proof pure grain ethanol, kept out of the light as UV breaks down DNA, & ultimately freezer stored. You do need a federal TTB permit to order the quantities we used (& waive tax), but Everclear does work, itâs been used in a pinchâŠ
Iâve spent most of my off time at work catching up on this thread and Iâll admit, the answer is no clearer to me than it was at the outset.
I got into this sport right when the long format went out the window. I became an eventer because of my admiration for eventerâs horsemanship, bravery, and adaptability.
That being said, I seriously doubt that Iâll ever go above Training, not because I donât have the talent (I think 
) or will never have access to a horse with the talent, but the extreme nature of the sport isnât for me. I love XC because it is always different. There is always something new. Itâs exhilarating to be out on course with my horse jumping from a gallop.
Itâs freeing.
The ULâs donât exemplify that to me anymore. Now, I very much appreciate the ULâs and ULRâs. 100% I respect them and I enjoy learning from them. But, I feel as if in this effort to make the sport ârelevantâ it has become a bit bastardized from what it once was, and even more so, there is this huge divide between the LLâs and the ULâs. Itâs almost two different sports at this time.
I enjoy doing research and learning more about the sport and my breed. I like to know what the safety concerns are. I like knowing what new technology can make me safer on my horse.
As I mentioned before, I donât know what the answer is. But I will say, I am still proud to be an eventer and I love what I do. But the sport is not what it once was, but what is?
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8183823]
also, could supplements be linked? Feed? Conditioning? Change in speeds on course?[/QUOTE]
This is one of those areas where a good incident report system and a database may well eventually turn up surprising and useful information, if people have access to the database to look at the data scientifically.
(And also one of the reasons why I think a necropsy should be required in all USEF investigations where a horse dies at a competition, like the hunter recently. Even if the cause of death seems obvious, there may be something that happened internally to cause the missed jump or trip or whatever, and the more we know about horses who have had sudden cardiac issues or similar, the more likely we are to spot the pattern, if there is one.)
As usual with these threads, this need for âdataâ bogs things down into a state of missing the forest for staring at individual leaves on the trees.
If a sport is causing more âcardiac eventsâ than other uses of equines, and those include racing and endurance, itâs a clear indication to me that something about THIS occupationâbe it the stress, the management or the questionsâis CAUSING those events to happen. If it were genetic, youâd be seeing it all over the placeâon the track in TBâs, in the rodeo in QHâs, in the dressage arena when speaking of WBâs. But weâre NOT seeing it, even in showjumping with the exception of Hickstead, itâs rarer than henâs teeth there.
So rather than focusing on the minutiae of equine sudden-death syndrome (which theyâre a long way from understanding in HUMANS I might add), why not look harder at the âmacroâ of what THIS sport is demanding from horses that the others are notâand start there.
Do horses and riders really need to die for another 5 or 10 years to get âthe data?â Epidemiology has MANY limits, as the human medical industry is finding out, and I donât think your answers will be found there. They MAY be found in good old-fashioned horsemanship! Iâd be consulting with a bunch of the old-time BNRâs and seeing what THEY thinkâis it the breeding, the courses, the times and distances, or something else?
Where are you finding YOUR data? Eventing is closer to racing and EnduranceâŠâcardiac eventsâ are not any more often in Eventing than in Endurance (just off my very quick calculations) and certainly NOT more often than in racing. That DOES happen all the time in TB and QH racing.
It still doesnât happen all that often in eventing but more than any of us want. THAT saidâŠI personally know of 4 that dropped from apparent cardiac issues in their field and have heard of several out hunting. Talking to a VERY well known vet who specializes in cardiac issuesâŠshe said that there are a number of factorsâŠbut dumbing it down for me, there is a basic issue with horses, their size and the pressure their hearts can exert in stress that is very different from humans and makes them as a species more prone to these issues.
Again from the British/Scottish study write-up:
Over a seven year period, with over seven hundred thousand race starts, there were 201 sudden deaths on British racecourses. The same syndrome is known to occur in eventing, show jumping and hunting but statistics have not been established in these sports.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8185181]
Again from the British/Scottish study write-up:[/QUOTE]
And I think it is more common at the US tracksâŠthere was an article about it not that long ago. British racing has much stricter drug rules and the article was questioning whether that factor contributed (to why the occurrence is higher in the US). But my understanding is there is no national data base in the US. Statistics are kept on a track by track basis.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8185115]
If a sport is causing more âcardiac eventsâ than other uses of equines, and those include racing and endurance, itâs a clear indication to me that something about THIS occupationâbe it the stress, the management or the questionsâis CAUSING those events to happen. If it were genetic, youâd be seeing it all over the placeâon the track in TBâs, in the rodeo in QHâs, in the dressage arena when speaking of WBâs. But weâre NOT seeing it, even in showjumping with the exception of Hickstead, itâs rarer than henâs teeth there. [/QUOTE]
The fact that sudden cardiac death happens more often in some disciplines than in others does NOT mean that genetic factors or environmental factors do not come into play. Sudden cardiac death can occur at any time but is generally more common during strenuous exercise such as eventing, racing, endurance or even foxhunting rather than, say, dressage, trail riding, or grazing in the field.
That doesnât mean we canât try to get a better understanding of what specifically causes it, and determine which horses are at risk in order to try to keep them (and us) safer. Is a thorough understanding a long way in the future? Sure. That doesnât mean it isnât worth working toward.
[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8185207]
That doesnât mean we canât try to get a better understanding of what specifically causes it, and determine which horses are at risk in order to try to keep them (and us) safer. Is a thorough understanding a long way in the future? Sure. That doesnât mean it isnât worth working toward.[/QUOTE]
Right. And you canât work toward it without that nasty word, DATA. That doesnât mean you canât also do other things, if you find something that looks promising - but throwing away data after an incident has happened is a stupid thing to do, and we are currently doing it with the USEF not requiring a necropsy and no collaborative database, etc.
(I mean, the ideal would be if there could be a database that included USEF and racing necropsy findings, since that gives you the largest spread of horses who are participating in high intensity activities and gives you more ability to compare different lifestyle factors and so on, but right now Iâd settle for one just covering USEF events.)
The only thing I object to doing when we lack data is making major changes - like insisting all horses be on a supplement or a drug, as an extreme example - because one or two people get it into their heads that doing THAT is The Answer. I want major changes of all kinds to be properly considered and subjected to some kind of âsanity reviewâ process (preferably including people outside the current circle of decision makers, for fresh eyes, and maybe a scientist for, you know, understanding of physics or veterinary aspects) before being pushed forward, because itâs very easy to make major changes and make things WORSE if you donât pause to think things through and understand how it may change the overall system.
Just throwing this out, but if calcium is part of the bodyâs regulation system for the heart, there has been discussion (from a scientific study) that lasix disrupts the bodyâs calcium usage for well over a month every time itâs used, which might have something to do with a higher inicidence in the US than other racing jurisdictions.
Wasnât it Baffert that had seven or eight horses drop dead in California in about a year this year or last year?
And donât the USEF and/or USEA require necropsies for deaths in competition in eventing?
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8185395]
And donât the USEF and/or USEA require necropsies for deaths in competition in eventing?[/QUOTE]
Iâm not looking up the rules because itâs 3am, but even if eventing does, itâs not apparently required in all USEF investigations because it was optional for the hunter that died recently - there was a big to do over the whole business on the h/j forum and also elsewhere online because people seemed to think that anyone saying âwait, why WOULDNâT you do a necropsy if youâre doing an investigation?â was saying âomg, someone killed that horse!â
Iâm quite surprised it isnât required, actually. It seems like itâd be the easiest and most fair thing for USEF to do. That way thereâs no âwell, why didnât you ask THAT person to do one?â type stuff, plus we may find out surprising things that lead to better care for our horses in the future, who knows? Canât learn stuff if you arenât looking!
I love DATA, his ability to handle any situation on the Enterprise made him aâŠohâŠsorry, wrong DATA.
I love Data. I work in a world that chomps, processes, and regurgitates data all day long so the idea of collecting it to help better the life of horses is a good thing.
One direction would be to start looking and the number of Cardiac Events in horses at Horse trials over the years, going from the lowest level to the highest. Let us count those in the field involved in competition for while they may have been enjoying a good graze when the ticker goes, it may have happened a day after getting home from Rolex.
We could build something like
Level Year1 Year2 Year3 (etc)
Pasture
Starter
BN
N
T
P
I
A
1*
2*
3*
4*
build it out and start to look at what point are horses keeling over on course. Above the line would be the point to start considering that maybe, possibly horses are being pushed past a point of good health. then the history of those horses could be examined to see when they got moved up, how much training, travel etc with the idea that limits be put on such extremes.
Sure sure, there are always horses out there that can handle the pressure, but since they really canât talk to us, we really donât know which is which, so being a little more conservative might be a nod to the whole Welfare of the Horse mantra.
The devil is in the details and who can or would make the effort to perform such research. Knowledgeable people trained in such efforts, officials in the organizations who (should) have access to the data, or average caring people with little to no time on their hands, no ability to get valid data, but passion in their heart. Would the results get made public? Would anyone really care after all that?
Still I agree, we need more data so we really can make an informed path forward.
Thatâs funny. I have to admit.
FEI has announced a study to be released soon on fall data. Eagerly awaiting this.
Posted by JP60: I love DATA, his ability to handle any situation on the Enterprise made him aâŠohâŠsorry, wrong DATA.
America is afraid of science and math 
[QUOTE=BaroquePony;8186923]
America is afraid of science and math :)[/QUOTE]
Hey, this scientist is working on that. And am PSYCHED about last yearâs launch of this organization, which is taking off.
http://citizenscienceassociation.org/overview/goals/
Now I just need to keep working on training my peers to translate esoteric into publicly accessibleâŠ
Agreed, science and math! weâd rather sensationalize one mishap on course than say 1256937 of 1256938 have had this same
mishap.
